Second Schedule.-(PROVISIONS AS TO IRON AND STEEL BOARD AND IRON AND STEEL HOLDING AND REALISATION AGENCY.) (Hansard, 24 February 1953)

§ Mr. Low
I beg to move, in page 33. line 1, to leave out from the beginning. to "to," in line 3, and to insert: It shall be within the capacity of the Board and the Agency as statutory corporations to do such things and enter into such transactions as are incidental or conducive. The object of this Amendment is to remove certain doubts that have arisen about the effect of this paragraph as it is now drafted upon the powers of the Board and the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency. Some, indeed, have thought that the paragraph widened the Board's powers. I think the Committee will be familiar with the point that is dealt with by the paragraph, namely, the capacity of the Board and the Agency to exercise civil rights under the law in connection with their statutory functions, just in the same way as, in the Act of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss), in Section 2 (4) and (6), he dealt with the capacity of the Corporation.
Many Members of the Committee will be familiar with the words "to do such things as are incidental or conducive" in companies' memoranda of association. We have thought it right in our re-draft of the paragraph, which we submit to the Committee now, to use exactly the same words as are used in many memoranda of association.
There is one other change that we have made in this Amendment. The paragraph as now drafted includes the words "as appear to them." We have substituted the words "as are incidental" for the phrase "as appear to them to be necessary for or incidental," and thus, if the exercise of this capacity is ever questioned, provide for a recourse to the 2037 courts which was excluded as the paragraph was originally drafted. I trust that the Committee will accept the Amendment.

§ Mr. Low
I beg to move, in page 33, line 23, at the end, to insert: and any such appointment shall be made on such terms as to remuneration, allowances and pensions (if any) as the Board, or, as the case may be, the Agency may determine. The main effect of this Amendment is to make it quite clear that the Board and the Agency may set up pension schemes for their staff. We put this provision in the Schedule in case there should be any doubt as to their capacity or power to do so, particularly after the Amendment which the Committee have just accepted in line I of the Schedule.
The Board's staff pensions are already mentioned in paragraph 8, but there is no such mention of pensions for the Agency staff. The Agency, of course, will be a temporary body, but we are anxious to provide in the Bill an opportunity for employees of the Agency to earn some pension rights. This would be important to any who join the Agency from the Corporation and who have some service behind them. We think that the Committee will agree that the Amendment improves the Schedule and adds something of importance to paragraph 7.

§ Mr. Low
I beg to move, in page 33, line 24, after "Board," to insert" or of the Agency."
I think that it would be convenient to explain to the Committee that what I have to say on this Amendment is relevant to all the remaining Amendments to the Second Schedule.
In the last Amendment, it was made clear that both the Board and the Agency will be able under the Amendment which we have just discussed, to set up a pension scheme for their staffs. Paragraph 8, with which this Amendment deals, provides that, if an employee of the Board is appointed to be a member of the Board. he may be treated as a member of the staff pension scheme as if his service as a Board member were service under the Board, without involving the provision that payments in respect of pensions to the Board members have to be deter- 2038 mined by the Minister with the approval of the Treasury.
The Committee will remember that provision in Clause 2 (7), and there is a subsequent requirement for a statement of pension provision to be laid before Parliament, which an earlier Amendment, which was accepted, imposed. As drafted, paragraph 8 does not apply to staff of the Board or Agency being appointed members of the Agency. That is so because originally no provision was made for pensions to Agency members. That has now been altered, and provision has been made for the preservation of existing pension rights of persons appointed members of the Agency, and the total effect of these six Amendments is to secure similar treatment for employees of the Agency in the unlikely event of their being appointed to membership of either the Board or the Agency. Although I say "unlikely this is not impossible, and these Amendments will also cover the possibility of an employee of the Board becoming a member of the Agency.
That is the explanation of this short and apparently simple Amendment. I am afraid that the explanation is not as simple as it might have been, but I hope that the Committee will have understood it.

§ Mr. Sandys
Before we conclude the Committee stage, and we are concluding it one day ahead of schedule, it would be ungenerous if I were not to express my thanks and appreciation to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) and his hon. Friends for the most co-operative way in which they have helped us.
2039 I am the last to suggest that, because we have got through the Committee stage so smoothly, it in any way reflects upon the attitude of hon. Members opposite towards the Measure. We know that their views on the organisation of the steel industry are different from ours and that their approach is altogether different, but what we appreciate is, that throughout the Committee stage, they have genuinely endeavoured to offer constructive Amendments to the Bill. We have done our best to accept as many of their Amendments as we could. At any rate, I hope we can all feel that the Bill will now go forward to the Report stage with improvements which have been made as a result of contributions from all sides of the Committee.
Discussions can no doubt take place through the usual channels to ascertain, in so far as it will be needed, how the time we have gained can be allotted to the later stages of the Bill.

§ Mr. G. R. Strauss
On my own behalf and on that of my right hon. and hon. Friends, I wish to say that we very much appreciate the words which the Minister has just spoken, and reciprocate his expressions of good will and appreciation in that we have been able to work well on both sides as a Committee without losing our tempers unduly. We realise that we have been a business Committee. We have discussed a number of very important matters with energy and sometimes with heat, though not often, and I believe that we have done as good a job in considering the details of the Bill as any Committee does when operating in the ordinary way upstairs, even if it has a longer period in which to do its work.
I am glad the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that the fact that we have taken a day less on the Committee stage than we anticipated we should need is no indication whatsoever that my hon. Friends have in any way weakened their opposition to or dislike of the Bill. It is important to point out that we have taken a day less because we found as we went through the Bill that although there were a large number of matters which could have been discussed at greater length, we decided that it would be wiser not to do 2040 that but to make our discussions as short and pithy as possible, to avoid any repetition and to concentrate, maybe, on further discussions on the Report stage, when we shall get half a day longer, and on the Third Reading, when we shall probably get half a day longer, if that is agreeable to the House. We shall then be able to make a better contribution and more effective comments on the Bill than on the Committee stage.
On behalf of my hon. Friends, I wish to say that, while we appreciate that at the end of the day we have failed to convince the right hon. Gentleman and the Government that the Bill is a rotten one and full of defects, both general and in detail, we appreciate that he has listened to our arguments on a number of occasions and has accepted, if not the Amendments we have moved, at any rate the fact that there is something valuable and worth while in what we have said and has undertaken to consider the points between now and the Report stage and to meet us if possible. On many occasions he and the Parliamentary Secretary, who has served him well, have made valuable concessions to us in reply to the arguments we have put forward, and we appreciate that.
When we come to the Report stage I hope we shall be able to carry on in as good a temper. I think the experiment, if it can be called an experiment, of getting a voluntary Guillotine has worked well on both sides. There has been cooperation. We have had effective discussions on important matters, and my hon. Friends have been remarkably assiduous in the way they have helped me. They have expressed their views and disagreements most effectively, and I am very grateful to them. I hope we may continue further discussion on this Bill in the same spirit on the Report stage and Third Reading. But let it be understood that however good the spirit of our discussions may be, our feelings about the Bill remain rather keener and more bitter at this stage than they did when we started the discussion.