HC Deb 10 February 1953 vol 511 cc264-8

5.30 p.m.

Mr. Braithwaite

I beg to move, in page 25, line 14, at the end. to insert: (b) railway tolls, that is to say, charges for the use of the railways of the Commission by traffic drawn by engines not belonging to the Commission. It is a simple point which this Amendments seeks to cover. In the earliest days of their inception, the Railway Companies were put in the same position as those operating canals and providers of tracks, whether solid or liquid. It was only having provided a railway track or canal, that they were in a position to charge tolls, and a considerable time elapsed before they also became carriers. It would appear that there are now only a few cases where privately owned locomotives run over the Commission's track, but some cases do exist, for instance, where works are divided into sections and situated adjacent to one another on the Commission's railway line.

Under such conditions tolls are strictly chargeable. It may well be that there is an obscure statute covering such tolls, and it seemed to us desirable to provide for their being covered by a charges scheme which would override such legislation. I hope that the House will see that this is merely a tidying up process and will agree to the Amendment being inserted in the Bill.

Mr. Ernest Davies

When I first saw this Amendment on the Order Paper, I had an awful feeling that the Minister was carrying his desire for competition a little far, and that he was going to encourage the private ownership of railway engines and trains with competition on railway tracks. But in view of the explanation which the Parliamentary Secretary has given to us, the position is quite clear and I think we can agree on this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I beg to move, in page 26, line 8, to leave out from "aforesaid," to "on," in line 10, and to insert: and subject to the provisions of this Act, secure that the charges to be made are left to the Commission's discretion and that no conditions or limitations are imposed. This Amendment also is one which will meet with general agreement. It is to make an agreed intention clear. The Clause as drafted says that the Transport Tribunal shall, save as aforesaid, leave the charges"— the important word is "leave"— to be made to the Commission's discretion without imposing"— and that is another important word— conditions or limitations on that discretion. Research has shown my advisers that there may be restrictions already in existence, and the object of this Amendment is to secure that there will be a duty on the Tribunal to secure that the scheme, when submitted, overrides these restrictions. This is in tune with the general desire to make a greater freedom for the railways effective, and I hope that the House will accept the Amendment.

Captain Robert Ryder (Merton and Morden)

Before we pass this Amendment which, as far as I can see, more or less prohibits the Tribunal from imposing any limitations, I should like to ask my right hon. Friend whether he has considered the special position of the London area, which suffers very many disadvantages.

The area served by the London Transport Executive is extensive and congested and is unlike any other part of the country. By its very nature transport within that area is bound to be costly, and people working in London have to spend a far higher proportion of their family budget in travelling to and from their places of work than is the case with the workers in any other part of the land. By virtue of the congestion they have to get up earlier in the morning and they get back later at night, so that they suffer from severe disadvantages. I am wondering whether some sort of protection is not desirable for those working in this area.

The second point which is peculiar to the London area is that the London Transport Executive carries no freight. In the rest of the country when the cost of railway transport is considered it can often be and, in fact, is offset by imposing increased charges on freight. An unremunerative branch line can receive a hidden subsidy by charges on freight. The Londoner, who may have to pay extra freight on his coal delivery, is in fact being asked to subsidise some unremunerative branch line in the West Country from which he gets no benefit. That is the second reason I suggest that London should receive some special consideration, even at this late hour.

The third reason which I wish to advance is that London's traffic, unlike almost any other part of the country, is carried on by a concern which has a complete monopoly in passenger traffic within that area. Whether it is due to this or to other causes, the fact is that since the Transport Commission acquired a London monopoly it has had to call for greatly increased charges. I have tried to get figures to find out the extent of this, but they are difficult to get. According to my calculations—and I would welcome a check on this from the Minister—since London transport was placed under the Transport Commission the average increase in fares amounts to something like 40 per cent. whereas in the rest of the country it is something like 25 per cent.

If that is the case, it surely shows that Londoners, under this arrangement, are placed at a very severe disadvantage, and I should like to ask my right hon. Friend whether he will seriously consider the disadvantageous position in which Londoners are placed, and, if he wishes to proceed with this particular Amendment, consider some other means by which the Londoners can be protected?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I am glad that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Merton and Morden (Captain Ryder) has raised this point, because it gives me an opportunity of clearing myself before my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite. This Clause to give freedom to the railways, deals almost entirely with merchandise, as does Clause 19. So do Clauses 20 and 22, but the latter provides for both passenger and freight temporary increases, and there are Amendments down on that. This Clause uses the word "passenger," in line 13, but it very largely applies to merchandise.

The situation is that the Clause as drafted provides, in paragraph (d), that the Tribunal: shall, save as aforesaid, leave the charges to be made to the Commission's discretion without imposing conditions or limitations on that discretion. The House has already passed the Clause in Committee with the words "save as aforesaid," and that "aforesaid" deals with maximum charges. The procedure which exists today is in no way altered by this Clause or subsection. The Commission would put forward from time to time, as they are doing now, a passengers' charges scheme. Under this Clause, the Tribunal will agree on the maximum charges which is the "aforesaid" referred to.

The whole purpose of the Amendment is this. There may be some restrictions which were already in existence in some old and very obscure legislation, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Merton and Morden that they have no possible bearing on the London travelling public. The Commission are already protected against the Tribunal imposing a restriction on the maximum charges, and the whole purpose of this modest Amendment is to allow for those restrictions, if there are any, that may already be in existence.

I shall welcome the chance later, when the Amendments are called, to deal with the passenger position in London, because I appreciate the natural anxiety of my hon. and gallant Friend and of hon. Members on both sides of the House, lest, in giving a new freedom to the Transport Commission in regard to merchandise increases to meet costs, it may be thought that London may be unduly prejudiced, and I have taken steps which I think ought to protect the London travelling public in that field, not that I think these steps are by any means essential because I feel that the good sense of the Commission and the wisdom of the Tribunal would in themselves protect the London travelling public from any unreasonable increase; but, none the less, I think that it is important to get this quite clear, and I hope to have a chance on the later Clauses to deal with that matter, and, if the Amendment in the name of the hon. Lady the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet) is called, to deal with it in a few moments.

Amendment agreed to.