HC Deb 04 February 1953 vol 510 cc1846-56
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir David Maxwell Fyfe)

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will make a brief statement about the areas affected by storm and floods.

The latest information in my possession is that 242 people have lost their lives in this catastrophe, but it is not yet possible to estimate accurately the number of those missing. The regional emergency committee have been instructed to make the best arrangements possible for establishing information centres locally where inquiries can be made. Individuals who have gone to another area can help by reporting their addresses to the police of their own home area.

Repair work on the breaches is continuing and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture has taken steps to secure the co-operation not only of the Service authorities but of civil engineering experts from other areas, and is also enlisting the help of consultants in this special field. Notwithstanding the strenuous efforts that are being made, the damage is so extensive that it will not be possible to complete all the work by the time of the next high tides beginning on 14th February, and there are areas of special difficulty where the defences are still under water. I can assure the House that everything possible will be done, but the country must be prepared for the possibility of further flooding in some areas at the next high tides. In order to prevent any further loss of life, and to minimise the risk of disease, residents who have had to leave their homes should satisfy themselves by local inquiries that it is safe for them to return before they do so.

There have been criticisms in certain quarters that no adequate warning was given to the public in the areas concerned, but I would remind the House that this country has been fortunate in not having suffered any ordeal of this kind in this century, and no Government in that time has thought it necessary to organise a public warning system for this purpose. I have, however, given instructions that the question of devising a warning system should be explored as a matter of urgency and I hope to be able to make a statement soon. There are, of course, obvious difficulties in deciding what areas should be warned and the time at which the warning should be given.

Certain matters affecting other Ministers were raised in the House yesterday, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who was visiting certain of the damaged areas yesterday, proposes to deal with those matters personally. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland also proposes to make a statement about the position in Scotland.

Mr. H. Morrison

We are obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his statement. I am sure that all of us, on both sides of the House, earnestly hope that at the next high tides there will not be a repetition of the unhappy and tragic occurences which have taken place.

May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman three questions? One is whether he has looked into the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds) with regard to requisitions—though possibly that matter is being dealt with by the Minister of Housing and Local Government. Secondly, the right hon. and learned Gentleman will remember that I raised the point about the circular slowing down constructional preventive work in relation to coast erosion. Has he been able to look into that? Thirdly, there are reports in the Press this morning that the Prime Minister has authorised an expenditure of £100 million to put things right. Is there any substance in those reports and, if so, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us something about the matter?

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe

With regard to the first point, as the right hon. Gentleman anticipated, my right hon. Friend will deal with that when, as I indicated, he makes his statement. With regard to the circular, there are two points. As the right hon. Gentleman will notice from what he quoted yesterday, one is that matters of urgency were excepted from the circular; but the general long-term position of coast defences will be the subject of a statement in a short time. I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to abate his zeal in inquiring into the matter, but I would ask him, in view of the very serious statement I had to make a few moments ago, to let it rest for a day or two on the assurance that that will be done. He will appreciate that the short-term problem is one of extreme urgency and anxiety.

On the third point, I cannot add to the statement with regard to financial assistance which I made yesterday and which covered emergency work, but I should like to consider more specifically the matter which has been raised by the right hon. Gentleman before I make a further answer.

Mr. Bevan

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that there is no conflict between long-term and short-term work? Work on repairing the sea defences can go on in the meantime, but the inhibition placed upon the local authorities in these areas in preparing schemes arises out of the circular. If the circular is withdrawn, it does not mean that the Government are committed at once to any immediate work. It means that the local authorities in the areas can prepare their schemes in readiness and send them in for permission. Is it not, therefore, very desirable that that inhibition should be removed from them at once?

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe

I shall naturally take into account, as will my right hon. Friend, what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I did say that there would be a statement very shortly, and I am only asking that we do not have our attention diverted from the immediate issue, which is such a serious one, at the present time. I am very anxious that no controversy should deflect us from dealing with the present urgent problem. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that what has been said will be considered, and that my right hon. Friend will make a statement as soon as possible.

Brigadier Medlicott

Is it not important for us to recognise the fact that on occasion the forces of nature are quite irresistible, more especially where the sea is concerned, as has been demonstrated along the east coast? Is it not a mistake to imagine that the expenditure of money alone can guarantee absolute safety?

Mr. Paget

In the light of your observations yesterday, Mr. Speaker, as to the indecency of making party capital out of this national tragedy, may I ask the Home Secretary whether he has had his attention drawn to a banner headline in today's "Daily Mail" reading "Vast Churchill Wall Planned," and whether he would repudiate that sort of conduct?

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe

There are limits even to my extensive and varied responsibilities.

The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Harold Macmillan)

I regret that I was not in my place yesterday. I should like to say something about the incident at Erith and also on the wider questions raised.

With regard to the first, there is, as I think you suggested yesterday, Mr. Speaker, a conflict of evidence. The Town Clerk was in telephonic communication with one of the officers of the London Region. I have been informed that permission to requisition the houses in question was not granted; and, therefore, as the Parliamentary Secretary said yesterday, there can be no question of its cancellation. What happened was that the officer in question referred the matter to higher authority, and instructions were then sent to the Town Clerk of Erith accordingly. Of course, I do not doubt the good faith of the Town Clerk; but I have equal confidence in that of my officers. Monday was, as hon. Members are aware, a day of some stress, and no doubt telephonic communications of this kind very easily lead to misunderstanding. I have received for 15 months the greatest loyalty from the officers of my Department and Regions, and if there has been a mistake I am prepared to take full responsibility for it.

Let me now touch on the problem in Erith. Here, the position is that all in need have, in fact, been given shelter, as I told the hon. Gentleman in my letter of Monday night. But there is here a special personal problem which is not without its difficulties, in that a substantial number—I think more than half—of the refugees is made up of caravan dwellers and some gypsies who have, as the House well knows, a strong community sense and a natural reluctance to be divided. The position at the moment is that four rest centres, already open, will soon be supplemented by others. I am sure that, in spite of these complications, the situation can and will be dealt with.

Let me turn to the wider issue. What part should requisitioning play in relief operations? The responsibility for welfare measures and first-aid relief rest with the county councils and the county boroughs under the general direction of the Ministry of Health. For this purpose, my right hon. Friend has no hesitation in authorising those authorities to requisition such property as they feel most convenient to perform their task. He has, indeed, already done so.

Naturally, for this purpose, larger properties, such as church halls, assembly halls, cinemas with restaurants attached and all the rest, are the best. Next to these, where it can be obtained, space in hotels, boarding houses and so forth. Full use, of course, is made of the generosity and help of individuals prepared to receive their neighbours, and I should like to pay tribute to this immense fund of kindness. If suitable private house accommodation can play a useful role. the Ministry of Health will not hesitate to authorise its use.

Let me here make clear that at Yarmouth, which was mentioned yesterday, my right hon. Friend has given all necessary authority. It has not, in fact, been necessary to use it, but there is no question of withdrawing it. But, of course, the houses will not be requisitioned on a long-term basis by the Ministry of Health or their representatives, but will be used, like halls or other similar buildings, for the short-term period. This illustrates the point that I have been trying to make. The House will, of course, understand that it is the larger houses which are the more suitable for this purpose than small cottage property.

After first-aid comes the second stage—convalescence and rehabilitation. What arrangements are to be made after the first emergency to rehouse such people as cannot get back to their own homes? The Minister of Health and I are already considering the problem of dispersing those in the rest centres. If for this purpose, in any individual cases, I feel that it is necessary to authorise the requisitioning of any empty houses that may be going, I shall, of course, do so; but in that case the authority concerned will be the housing authority, that is, the county boroughs and the district councils, for they are the responsible authorities for the long-term housing, as distinct from the short-term welfare problem.

Mr. Dodds

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, may I first say that there is deep resentment at the reflection cast on the Erith Town Clerk, and that steps are now being taken to deal with that in a better way than can be done on the Floor of the House.

Secondly, the Minister was perfectly accurate when he stated in his letter that all the people evacuated from the flood area had a roof over their heads, but, of course, he evaded the main question. They were taken to rest centres where they should remain for 24 or 48 hours. Therefore, what we asked was that people who had been there 48 hours should go into empty houses.

Thirdly, the right hon. Gentleman drew a red herring across the matter when he stated that one of the problems involved was the fact that among the people affected are gypsies and caravan dwellers. That only makes the problem worse, because in addition to such people there are those who are used to living in houses whom the Town Clerk wanted to segregate as quickly as possible and put into those empty houses.

Finally, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether approval has yet been given to an application made on Monday morning by the Erith Town Council to requisition 20 houses, because the position this morning is worse than it was yesterday?

Mr. Macmillan

The hon. Gentleman has been good enough to make a certain number of statements in which he has recognised the accuracy of what I wrote to him. I am grateful to him. As to the personal question, I have expressed my view and I hope the House will accept it. As regards the final question, what I have been trying to make clear is that when we come to the second stage of sorting out the people who should go from the rest centres—which is a remarkably small number compared with those who have to be dealt with—the right people should go into the houses and that certain people should not get ahead of others.

Mr. Hamilton

Who are the right people?

Mr. H. Morrison

The right hon. Gentleman has stated that there was no cancellation of these proposed requisitions on the ground that permission had been refused; but is he aware that the Parliamentary Secretary said yesterday: My right hon. Friend, who is touring the flood areas, has asked me to reply. As my right hon. Friend has informed the hon. Member, he does not agree that there was any cancellation. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is really very misleading merely to say there was no cancellation? Would not it have been better to have admitted that permission to requisition had been refused and that therefore the question of cancellation did not arise? [HON. MEMBERS: "That was said."] That did not arise until later, and then in a very begrudging way.

Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly supervise the answering of Parliamentary Questions by the Parliamentary Secretary, because I am bound to say that I drew the deduction from the answer given that requisitioning had not been refused, and that therefore the question of cancellation did not arise. But it now appears that requisitioning had been refused, and I submit that the answer given was really misleading and calculated to be deceptive to the House.

Mr. Macmillan

I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that my hon. Friend said: If there was no cancellation, it automatically follows that no permission was given in the first place."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd February, 1953 Vol. 510, c. 1661–5.]

Mr. Morrison

That was much later.

Mr. Macmillan

I think the right hon. Gentleman will admit that this statement made by my hon. Friend was very clear.

Mr. Morrison

It was much later.

Mr. Macmillan

Well, these are the facts anyway, and the right hon. Gentleman has been long enough in Government to know that at certain times there are misunderstandings between officials at different levels. As I said before, I stand by those who serve me, and if there has been any mistake I take full responsibility for it. With regard to the question whom I mean by the right people, I mean those who in the view of the housing authorities, not the welfare authorities, are the people who have the greatest need, and that is what I think must stand.

Mr. Bevan

There is, of course, a very complicated relationship between the welfare and the housing authorities, and that has to be appreciated. Nevertheless, in these cases it is, in fact, the housing authorities who apply for the right to requisition, so therefore the confusion does not arise. Why has the right to requisition been refused to the housing authorities?

Mr. Macmillan

Because the short-term use of houses is not to accommodate individual families, but to shelter as many people as possible in the first few days. The proper people in that case are the welfare authorities and the best type of houses for the purpose are the large houses which may be more suitable than the cottage property. When it comes to housing individual families, that will be done by the housing authorities, and we shall certainly use all the machinery available.

Mr. Pannell

On a point of order. The Minister, Mr. Speaker, has made an incorrect statement. I have in my hand a copy of a signed statement which my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds) received, following investigations this morning, which makes it clear beyond all doubt that this power was given. There were witnesses, reputable people, in the Town Clerk's office—a small council of war—who overheard this conversation. In these circumstances, will the Minister cause an investigation to be made on the evidence which I am prepared to submit to him?

Mr. Macmillan

If the hon. Member submits evidence, I shall, of course, be ready to take account of it.

Mr. Speaker

In answer to the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell), there seems to have been some unfortunate misunderstanding over the whole of this business which has led to two different versions of the same story. I have no doubt that if the hon. Member for Leeds, West submits his evidence to the Minister, it will be carefully scrutinised.

Mr. Bevan

The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly correct in saying that the requisitioning of welfare centres for short periods is the function of the welfare authorities. Nevertheless, in this particular instance, as we understand it, the housing authorities are anxious to requisition for legitimate housing purposes houses for families who, in their judgment, are eligible for the houses and who are at the same time victims of the floods. There is, therefore, no conflict between the administrative functions of the welfare authorities and the housing authorities in this respect. That being so, why does not the right hon. Gentleman allow the housing authorities to decide the merits of the individual cases and requisition the empty houses for legitimate housing purposes?

Mr. Macmillan

I do not think there is much difference between us. All I say is that I think it best to do one thing at a time. The first thing to be dealt with on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday was the welfare problem. Afterwards, we shall sort out the long-term problem.

Mr. McAdden

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in those areas where this problem is most acute his general attitude will be well understood and appreciated, because it is recognised that the primary need is to see that these people are given temporary accommodation? They all optimistically hope that in an appreciable space of time they will be able to return to their own homes and not go to the homes of other people. In these circumstances, will my right hon. Friend persist in his desire to see that the residual problem of those who cannot return to their own homes is dealt with in relation to the housing needs of those who need to be housed?

Mr. Dodds

I should like to raise a point, Mr. Speaker, on which there is no conflict of evidence. You will remember that in the House yesterday the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) made a statement that requisitioning of houses had been approved in connection with flood victims. That was not denied by the Parliamentary Secretary, and therefore I should like to ask the Minister whether the requisitioning of houses has been approved in any other district.

Mr. Macmillan

I dealt with that in my reply. In the Yarmouth district, and indeed in any district, if the welfare authority, the county council or the county borough, wish to requisition houses for use as shelter during the welfare first-aid period that authority will be given. As I have explained, in fact, that authority had been given, but it had not as yet been necessary to use it in any district of which I am aware, including Yarmouth.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

We have another statement to follow and we have the Guillotine on the Transport Bill.

Later—

Mr. Braine

May I respectfully submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that, as the Member for the constituency which includes Canvey Island, the worst affected of all the flooded areas, I might have the opportunity of asking the Minister of Housing and Local Government a question on his statement? With very great respect and humility, I attempted to catch your eye several times while a number of hon. Members from other areas which are less seriously affected and have less serious problems succeeded in asking questions.

Mr. Speaker

We had really passed from the subject, but I think that, in view of the abnormal circumstances, if the hon. Member has a question to ask about his afflicted area, I will not stand in his way.

Mr. Braine

I am indeed grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in respect of the first phase of relief and rehabilitation, he is aware that my constituents, irrespective of party or section, are full of praise for the action that has been taken by the respective Government Departments and local authorities? But we are already entering upon the second phase, and may I ask my right hon. Friend, bearing in mind the accuracy of his statement that the number of people in rest centres is relatively small, to remember also that they include a number of very large families whom it is exceedingly difficult to accommodate? Will he bear in mind that there is dire need for an early decision in order that these rest centres, which are schools, may be freed for their educational purpose? Can a very early decision be taken in order that the problem may be cleared up?

Mr. Macmillan

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is, of course, precisely what we are now engaged upon if only for the one reason, among others, that we do not want to keep large numbers of people together for longer than is absolutely necessary at a period when sickness is always a danger.