HC Deb 15 December 1953 vol 522 cc345-54

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Kaberry.]

10.19 p.m.

Miss Margaret Herbison (Lanarkshire, North)

For the third time, I shall attempt to make my speech. I wish to draw attention to the effect of condensation in temporary houses. This is a matter which affects thousands of families in Scotland, and, indeed, families all over the British Isles.

Last week, in the debate on the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Bill, the Secretary of State made the following comments, speaking of the lack of repairs to houses: It is, indeed, a great social problem… Later, he said: …today we are faced with an ever-growing problem of dilapidation which must be tackled before it is too late. It is the tenants who suffer in this matter, and it is the tenants whom we are out to help. He made another comment: Housing which can be repaired is a very important national asset."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th December, 1953; Vol. 521, c. 1992–3.] I am in complete disagreement with the Secretary of State on the measures he proposes to deal with this problem, but I am in complete agreement with those statements of his which I have just quoted.

Because of complaints which I have had from a great number of constituents, I visited a number of these temporary houses during the Recess, and I must say that from what I saw I found the complaints of my constituents were fully justified.

I put a Question to the Secretary of State on this matter and it was answered by the Joint Under-Secretary of State, who I think is to answer me again tonight. He answered my Question on 17th November. I think he was in rather a carnaptious mood that day and, despite all the trouble we have had tonight, I trust he may not be in the same mood again, because his answer that day was most unsatisfactory. I put a supplementary question to him and the answer to it was even more unsatisfactory than his answer to the Question.

If he and his right hon. Friend really believe that it is the tenants who suffer, and if they really are out to help, as the right hon. Gentleman said they were, here, I suggest, is a golden opportunity at their hand for helping tenants with no bogey of a landlord intervening. The tenants whom I visited are certainly suffering; there is no doubt about that. An important point which must not be overlooked is that the majority of tenants in temporary houses have young children. In most of the houses which I visited the tenants themselves had tried to lessen the effects of condensation in their homes. These tenants are good and responsible citizens and at some considerable expense to themselves they have taken steps to minimise the worst effects of condensation in their homes.

In spite of their work and in spite of their expenditure, one bedroom in particular in each house which I visited was extremely damp, both the walls and the ceiling, and the mattresses of beds, cots, and prams had been ruined.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Commander T. D. Galbraith)

When the hon. Lady refers to this one bedroom, to which type of house does she refer?

Miss Herbison

The one bedroom refers to the Arcon type of house, which I mentioned in my supplementary question, but also affected are the aluminium houses which I shall deal with later. I am dealing with condensation in all these houses, particularly the Arcon type. Tenants showed me articles which had been left in cupboards, and any which had been left for any length of time were covered with mould. This is serious from the financial point of view for the tenants. I would suggest, and I am sure the Joint Under-Secretary would agree, that it is much more serious from the health point of view.

One woman told me last weekend that her councillor had advised her not to allow her children to sleep in either of the two bedrooms but to take them into the living room. If that is not getting back to slum conditions I do not know what is. Another woman in the Arcon type of house told me that she had taken old blankets and used them for insulating between the ceiling and the roof. She thought that she had been the winner because in that winter in that particular bedroom she had no dampness, but the following winter it was just as bad as ever. She just could not continue supplying blankets for this purpose.

I understand that discussions have taken place between the local authorities and the Department of Health on this question of insulation. The local authorities rightly claim, in my view, that where insulation is defective it should be made good at the expense of the Exchequer. I understand that the Department oppose this point of view, although defective insulation is entirely due to the original method of construction. I would urge on the Secretary of State to accept the case which has been put forward so clearly by local authorities on this matter of insulation.

About two years ago, the Lanarkshire local authority were allowed to carry out background heating in 50 of the aluminium houses. They were told at that time that this was the limit to which the Department would give approval, and the reason given at that time was that the Department were carrying out certain experiments and no further background heating would be allowed until these experiments were completed. That was two years ago. Two winters have come and gone since the Lanarkshire authority were given that instruction from the Department, and yet on 17th November the Joint Under-Secretary lamely tells me that we must wait another winter until the results of these investigations and experiments are completed.

I would say that this is not good enough, particularly where the health of young children is concerned. Lanark county has recently put back background heating into another 100 aluminium houses with the permission of the Department, but the technical adviser to that county has advised that there is condensation to a lesser or greater degree in all the aluminium houses. I know from my own inspection, and the local authority tells me that they also know from complaints they have received, that the Arcon houses are also very adversely affected by condensation.

I would urge on the Joint Under-secretary tonight, and I would ask him to carry my plea to his right hon. Friend, not to wait any longer for the results of any other experiment before he authorises local authorities to carry out remedial measures. Here, as I said before, is a chance for the Secretary of State and the Joint Under-Secretary to prove clearly that they really do want to keep the houses we have at the present time as a national asset, and that they can do this by giving much more serious consideration to the points which have been put forward not only by my local authority but, I understand, by almost every local authority in Scotland which has these temporary houses.

Everyone—the Joint Under-Secretary and the local authorities—knows that condensation exists. Everyone knows that in many of these houses insulation is ineffective. We have had two years of experiment, and it seems to me that now, before we have the worst of this winter—it has been very mild so far—the Joint Under-Secretary should take his courage in his hands and say to the local authorities, "Get ahead with your background heating; get ahead with providing better insulation in these houses." If he did so, it would be an indication to the people in Scotland that he and his right hon. Friend are serious in the pronouncements that they have made.

10.31 p.m.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Commander T. D. Galbraith)

The hon. Lady has put a very serious and well argued case before the House to night. I, of course, am well aware that there have been complaints about condensation in the aluminium houses; that applies in particular to some 800 or 900 of them which were the first of these houses completed, and which were built without any protection under the roof. But the hon. Lady must not blame me for that because, as she knows, I have no responsibility for it.

Then the next 6,000 of these houses had the insulating material attached to the roof by means of rivets, and in the course of time, as the insulating material gathered the moisture from the condensation, it became heavier and tore away from the rivets. The last 6,000 of that particular type of aluminium house had the inner cladding supported by strips, and that has remained in position and is evidently giving satisfaction.

As to these first two categories—the 800 to 900 which had no insulation and the ones which had the riveted insulation—I agree that something has got to be done, and the sooner that can be undertaken the better. However, it is very easy to say that, but if the hon. Lady—as I am sure she may have done while she was on this tour of inspection—had examined the underside of the roofs she would have found that the space is very restricted indeed, and it is a very long and difficult job either to put into place the cladding which is not already there or to re-fit the insulation which is torn away.

As the hon. Lady has said, in these two classes to which I have referred where the matter is really of a serious nature, considerable satisfaction should be given with background heating and replacing the insulation where this is possible. We hope that in other houses, to which I will refer in a moment, similar improvements may be made.

There is also the Uniseco house, which also is not very good, and experiments have been tried with them both in regard to background heating and installing insulation in certain parts of the house, particularly along the wall which is unclad, I understand. That is what we are doing in the case of these aluminium houses of which there is serious complaint, particularly in such places as the Burgh of Ayr where the original houses were supplied.

I must tell the hon. Lady that when she says, "Go ahead and get on with the job before this winter gets any worse," there is not a chance of being able to install the insulation in that period of time. In fact, it will be a very lengthy operation as well as a very expensive one.

Miss Herbison

I have with me what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman said about the three different types. In my local authority, it is the second type, the ones which are fixed with rivets. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman says it will take a long time. I expect it will, but the sooner we begin the better. The local authorities are having this struggle with his Department as to who is going to pay. Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give me some indication whether that question is going to be settled? If the local authorities carry out this work, who is going to pay for it?

Commander Galbraith

That is a very serious question to which the hon. Lady is asking for an immediate reply. As I indicated, it is going to cost a considerable sum of money. Perhaps the hon. Lady would put down a Question on that later on. The hon. Lady has dealt with the question of the Arcon house, and while we have had serious complaints about the first two types of aluminium houses, we have had no serious complaint, either from Lanark or any other area, with regard to the Arcon house.

So far as those in the hon. Lady's constituency are concerned, I have ascertained that in February of this year the county council undertook an inspection of certain of these houses, I think at Dykehead Shotts. In all, they inspected 117 houses. I have obtained the report of the housing repairs supervisor in relation to this inspection of the houses. I have it here now.

That official of the county council says that quite a number of these houses showed small damp patches on the ceilings. Many of them provided examples of condensation at the windows, and that, of course, resulted in signs of dampness in the panels under them. The hon. Lady will know full well that even in our traditional houses one often gets very heavy condensation round the windows in frosty weather.

Miss Herbison

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has given examples of the houses in Dykehead Shotts, which is where I live in a permanent house. What I saw in my visit to these Arcon houses surprised me greatly. One just could not imagine anything such as I saw in these Arcon houses happening in permanent houses.

Commander Galbraith

The hon. Lady has no doubt been referring to the condensation round the windows. Of course, they are metal windows, and one would anticipate finding heavier condensation there than round ordinary wooden windows. All I am saying is that in traditional houses, we often get a good deal of condensation in frosty weather.

Over and above that, it is stated in the report that in the case of 33 houses inspected—that is 28 per cent. of the total—there were no signs of dampness. The marks on the ceilings, the supervisor goes on to say, were in nearly every case caused by condensation on the roof trusses or at the angle iron which runs along the ceiling. He makes the further statement that in no case was there excessive condensation.

He noted something to which the hon. Lady has referred in the course of her speech, that where the tenants had tried to remedy the condition prevalent after frosty weather by the use of alternative heating and proper ventilation, the condensation was kept at a minimum. As a result of further inquiries, it has been ascertained from the deputy county clerk that he has no knowledge of Arcon houses requiring to be repaired and improved if they were to remain reasonably habitable. That seems to be in almost complete contradiction to the hon. Lady's impression.

Miss Herbison

I cannot allow that to go. I have a letter from the local authority saying that the complaints were not confined to the temporary aluminium houses, and complaints have also been received in regard to the Arcon houses.

Commander Galbraith

That may be quite true; I do not deny that. I was quoting the actual words that the supervisor had no knowledge of the Arcon houses requiring to be repaired and improved if they were to remain reasonably habitable. [Interruption.] I am quoting from the depute county clerk of the county of Lanark.

Mr. James H. Hoy (Leith)

In defence of my hon. Friend, I would say that surely there can be a wide interpretation of "reasonably habitable." That does not discount any fact that there may be repairs which have got to be carried out, even though the house is "reasonably habitable."

Commander Galbraith

That may be. This is nothing against the hon. Lady and I am not accusing her of anything. I said that this was somewhat different to what she had discovered in the course of her examination. There is nothing wrong in my calling attention to what the official says.

I seem to remember—my recollection may not be absolutely accurate—that what the hon. Lady indicated in her supplementary question to me recently, to which she has referred, was that in her constituency it was the Arcon house in which the greatest condensation was taking place. All I have to say about that is that the Department of Health has no evidence to lead to that conclusion. As I intimated earlier, I was surprised that that had been the experience of the hon. Lady.

It seems to me from the supervisor's report that such condensation as does occur in the Arcon house can be very greatly reduced if proper steps are taken to see that there is thorough ventilation of the rooms and that there is the use of alternative heating, particularly in the bedrooms, after a period of frost.

As I have tried to explain, we have been looking into this matter. In certain cases we have undertaken very large experiments. It is no use going ahead and spending, not just pennies and half-pennies, but very considerable sums, in regard to every one of these houses unless we are certain that we have found the answer. That is what we are endeavouring to do. The hon. Lady rather taxed me with a lack of willingness to go ahead, but that is not so. We are anxious to go ahead, but we must ascertain that a remedy has been found. If not, it may well be that a lot of these houses should be got rid of without further delay.

Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)

When this matter first occurred, the Bristol Aeroplane Company, who were engaged on a lot of these houses, conducted experiments with tons of ice and condensation experiments, but it was understood that they had found a remedy. The Blackburn Company were informed of that, and it seems strange they are not going to carry out the remedy that was then found. The defect was largely due to false economy in saving the inner skin of the roof at the time. But Blackburn and Bristol were repairing some of these earlier houses and had found the remedy, and it seems that they ought to know still what the remedy is.

Commander Galbraith

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman heard what I said earlier. They found a remedy in that after they started building the aluminium house without any cladding under the skin, they then went ahead and put cladding in, but they secured it by rivets. The stuff simply tore away from the roofs as time went on. Then they tried again and put in strips to secure the cladding.

Those are the experiments which the company made at that time. We have had to go further than that. As the hon. Lady said, we have had to put in background heating. Having ascertained that the inner cladding has been torn away we have to find means of replacing it. We have to discover whether, if it is replaced, the job will be satisfactory. I am sure that the hon. Lady would not have us spend vast sums of money—and that is what it comes to—if we have an unsatisfactory article at the end of the day.

We are not neglectful of this matter. We really are pushing ahead. The hon.

Lady has said that Lanark has been authorised to go ahead with another 100 houses. If, after all this, we find a remedy with which it is worth persevering, I can assure the hon. Lady that we shall go ahead. In the meantime, let us not go ahead, when we have no real remedy, and spend vast sums of money probably to no purpose whatsoever. If the hon. Lady has specific cases relating to the Arcon house and would let me have the details I should be most obliged, and I promise that I will look into the matter further and have investigations made.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Thirteen Minutes to Eleven o'Clock.