§ 29. Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the public alarm arising from the disclosures at the recent trial of Mr. Brian Hayward and 10 Kikuyu members of his screening team; and what steps is he taking to prevent any further resort to the torturing of Mau Mau suspects
§ Mr. LytteltonYes, Sir. I would refer the hon. Members to my reply to the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) last Wednesday.
All screening teams and their European leaders, who are personally selected by the Provincial Commissioners concerned, are specially instructed at training centres, and, if found unsuitable for the work, are not employed on it. Written instructions have been issued that the work of screening is to be strictly supervised at all times, and the Kenya Government are satisfied that these instructions are being carried out. In the Rift Valley Province, where 20 screening teams now deal with about 4,000 persons 1963 a month, a senior officer is engaged almost full time on the supervision of this work.
I have no information about the ages of the team leaders. I am communicating with the Kenya Government on this point and will write to the hon. Member when I have their reply.
§ Mr. DonnellyCan the right hon. Gentleman confirm or deny that Mr. Brian Hayward has been re-appointed to the post which he held before he was sent to prison?
§ Mr. LytteltonThere are a number of other Questions on this matter on the Order Paper today, but the short answer to the hon. Gentleman is: No, he has not been re-appointed.
At the end of Questions—
§ Mr. DribergOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When the right hon. Gentleman rose to answer these important Questions, some of us were rather expecting that he was going to ask your leave to answer Questions Nos. 59, 60, 61,70 and 72 jointly, as he had earlier referred to these Questions and we were promised answers to them on which we could ask supplementaries.
§ Mr. DonnellyFurther to that point of order. I did not press a supplementary question on Question No. 29 when the right hon. Gentleman referred to Question No. 59, among others, because I understood that he was proposing to make a statement on it. Could we be told whether he has asked permission to answer it?
§ Mr. SpeakerHe has not. This is the first that I have heard of it.
§ Mr. DribergFurther to that point of order. Does not a rather special situation arise when a Minister misleads the House by implying that he is going to reply orally to Questions later in Question time, even though he may be secretly hoping that they will not be reached?
§ Mr. LytteltonI must first of all rebut entirely any suggestion, which is quite unworthy of the hon. Gentleman, that I seek at any time to avoid giving this House information on any subject. I ask him to withdraw that imputation because I think hon. Members in all 1964 parts of the House know that it is utterly without foundation.
If you give me permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall be willing to answer the Questions, but I thought that we had taken a good deal of time already.
§ Mr. DribergI am very glad indeed to withdraw the imputation, in view of the Minister's readiness to answer the Questions now.
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is quite irregular for this procedure to take place. I have received no request for it, and I would not have this regarded as a precedent, but in view of the heat which seems to have been raised in this matter and the imputation which has now been withdrawn, I will give permission to the right hon. Gentleman to read his answer.
§ Mr. ElliotIs it not a fact that a very important discussion is about to take place today on the housing conditions of Scotland, and that these present Questions, if proceeded with, may lead to notice being given that the matter will be raised on the Adjournment, which immediately stops all argument and further discussion upon them in this House?
§ Mr. SpeakerThere is a very important debate to take place, but in view of what I have said, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give the answer, and then I hope the House will then proceed to the proper business.
§ Mr. SorensenOn a point of order. Do I understand that if we generate enough heat we can expect our Questions to be answered?
§ Mr. SpeakerI was not quite clear what happened, but it was stated categorically by the hon. Member who raised this matter that some undertaking had been given that his Question would be answered.
§ Mr. DribergAn implied undertaking.
§ Mr. SpeakerLet me understand what happened. Did the hon. Member say that the right hon. Gentleman had undertaken to ask permission to give this answer?
§ Mr. DribergI said that there was an implied undertaking. I gather that you have now given your permission, Mr. Speaker?
§ Mr. SpeakerNo, I have given it under a misapprehension. I heard the hon. Member say that the right hon. Gentleman had misled the House by giving that undertaking.
§ Mr. DribergBy implying it.
§ Mr. SpeakerI did not hear that, and if that is the case I cannot allow the Question to be answered. We must get on.
§ Mr. DonnellyFurther to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am afraid there is some misunderstanding. The right hon. Gentleman distinctly said to me in reply to Question No. 29 that he would not answer it then because he was going to answer a Question later. The matter can easily be resolved because the right hon. Gentleman has asked permission to answer it. We do not want to give the impression that the Colonial Secretary is now intervening in Scottish affairs. That would be the last thing that we should want. Could he possibly answer the Question now?
§ Mr. SpeakerNo. I must adhere to my Ruling.
§ Mr. SnowLast Thursday I put a Question to the Leader of the House on this very matter, and it was my understanding—it will be within the recollection of the House—that on that occasion the Leader of the House consulted the Colonial Secretary, who briefed him to say that this statement would be made.
§ Sir W. DarlingMay I direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to a statement which appears in today's Official Report, in which an hon. Member opposite said:
On a point of order. I propose to give you notice, Mr. Speaker, that I shall raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment for the Christmas Recess, subject, of course, to your approval, in order that some of us may speak about poor old [Scotland]."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1953; Vol. 521, c. 1826.]
§ Mr. SpeakerI would be willing to allow this Question to be answered if the right hon. Member felt that he had given an undertaking and was anxious to fulfil it, but that, I understand, is not the case. The House is now quite satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman is willing to do it. I am the bar in the way. I am not willing that he should.