HC Deb 24 October 1952 vol 505 cc1442-7

11.10 a.m.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 22, at the end, to add: (2) Any statutory instrument containing such regulations as aforesaid shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament. The Amendment provides that any Statutory Instrument containing the regulations shall be laid, and it will, of course, make the regulations subject to the usual negative Resolution procedure. This carries out the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend during the course of the Second Reading, and I think it will commend itself to the Committee.

Mr. Glenvil Hall (Colne Valley)

There is nothing which I can add to what the Under-Secretary has said, except to say that we on this side of the Committee welcome this addition to the Bill. It was very necessary that something of the kind should be included, and if the Government had not put down this Amendment we most certainly would have done.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Dr. Horace King (Southampton, Test)

I do not propose to detain the Committee for more than a few minutes, but I was tempted to suggest an Amendment to this Clause by the addition of a subsection which would instruct the Minister to carry out a recommendation of the Wheare Committee's Report and set up a national Children and the Cinema Committee. I take the opportunity of raising the matter on this Clause, because I think that it is of extreme importance.

The Wheare Committee recommended that we should set up a committee, not in any restricted sense, but a committee which would be the focus of national interest on children in the cinema, and which would provide the machinery for giving advice on the classification of children's films—a body which ultimately would create and provide films for children and, above all, a body which would be the focus for setting up in different parts of the country local children's cinema committees dealing with this question in a positive way.

I would call the attention of the Minister—and I am reiterating what my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) said in a previous debate—to the fact that this is a matter not only for the Home Office, but for the Minister of Education. May I illustrate what I am saying by referring to the Wheare Committee's Report and its description of what has taken place in the town of Stoke-on-Trent? There, a Children's Cinema Council has been set up. Its members are composed of the education committee, teachers and parents, as well as cinematograph exhibitors and club managers. It meets regularly and deals in a positive way with the problems of children attending cinemas in Stoke-on-Trent; and, what is much more exciting, it has set up a committee of children themselves, elected from the schools of the district, and has established cinema clubs for primary and secondary school children.

This whole matter is not one that can be solved by the commercial interests. The recommendation in the Wheare Committee's Report was that having set up this committee, the link with the British Board of Film Censors should be through the chairman, and I hope that at some stage the Home Secretary and his colleague the Minister of Education will use the powers given under this Clause to set up a specific committee, not merely a children's advisory committee to which reference was made on the Second Reading debate, but a statutory committee to inaugurate a very great piece of work for children in this country.

I do not propose to reiterate the points which I made during the Second Reading debate, but there are all kinds of important recommendations from the Wheare Committee. I would mention one which I did not have time to deal with on the Second Reading debate. It seems to me very important that we should not regard a children's cinema show as one perpetually closed to adults. Some day fathers and mothers with their children may very well get together in a sort of family party at the children's cinema shows and, above all, those who are keenly interested in the positive work of providing children's entertainment in the cinema could be with them at these Saturday morning shows. I think that some regulations could be made under this Clause to provide for that.

I do not wish to do anything which will delay the passage of this excellent Bill through Committee, but I felt that I ought to make these observations.

11.15 a.m.

Mr. Joseph Reeves (Greenwich)

I should like to support the plea which my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. King) has made. I feel that we are dealing with the children's film in a way which is out of proportion to the regulations. The difficulty is that when the 1909 Bill was passed, it was purely a safety Measure. There is no doubt that the celluloid film, being so inflammable, demanded action by the Government to protect the public. As we know, very serious fires had been caused on account of the combustibility of the celluloid film, and the Bill was passed upon that basis.

Now the whole scene has changed. The Home Secretary has already told us that the non-inflammable film is becoming the rule rather than the exception, and, consequently, all the regulations which have developed over the years no longer apply. The safety aspect is ceasing to exist and we are now forced to deal with this question of children's films from the point of view of censorship. It seems to me that the 1909 Act is a very awkward instrument, amend it as one will, to deal with this question of censorship, and to have to include children's films in this piece of legislation strikes me as being almost ridiculous.

I would ask the Home Secretary, when the Bill has gone through, if he and his officials would go into the whole question of segregating this aspect of the children's films from this Bill altogether. I am sure that is the right way to approach this matter. Indeed, in my view, we require a totally new Bill, because to amend the 1909 Act, which was for a totally different purpose, at this juncture, is not expedient and does not meet the situation.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir David Maxwell Fyfe)

In view of the way in which this matter has been put forward, I think that the simplest and best way of meeting the points raised by hon. Members would be for me to say that I shall gladly consider them with those in my office who are specially versed in them. If the hon. Gentlemen who have raised them can find time to see me quite informally and give me their views, I shall welcome them. I think that meets the substance of the matter, and I shall be very pleased if in the usual way with which, I think, they are quite familiar, they will get in touch with me and have a talk about it.

Mr. Glenvil Hall

We very much appreciate what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said. Throughout our proceedings we have realised that we have been legislating for two very different things. The question of the child and the cinema is, in the light of the Wheare Report, a very important matter now, and the clear and voluminous Report issued by the Committee should not be allowed to remain on a shelf but should be implemented.

From what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said on Second Reading, I understand that he and the Secretary of State for Scotland intend to put many of the Wheare Report's recommendations and suggestions into regulations. However, I imagine that will not cover the field entirely, and we welcome his statement that he will take an early opportunity to consult my hon. Friends and other interests to see if yet another Measure—it need not be a big one—should later on be passed by the House, the part of this Bill which refers to children being repealed at the same time.

Mr. Tom Brown (Ince)

In view of the manner in which the Home Secretary has offered to meet my two hon. Friends, I wish to ask him whether, when he is considering new legislation dealing with children's films, he would be prepared to accept recommendations from local education authorities, for they have had under consideration the very serious effects which some films have on the minds of children. From my experience on local education authorities I know that this matter has received their attention, and their experience and consideration may enable them to submit valuable suggestions to the right hon. and learned Gentleman which will aid him in the compilation of the new legislation which he has promised.

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe

I appreciate what has been said by the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown), and I should like to draw his attention to the fact that my colleague the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education is present this morning, which demonstrates our combined interest in these matters. I should be more than glad to have that aspect introduced into our discussions, and we should then have the advantage of the point of view of the Ministry of Education which is in touch with the local education authorities.

Dr. King

I thank the Home Secretary for the very forthcoming and generous way in which he has received the remarks which have been made this morning. As we listened to the speech with which he opened the Second Reading debate and to the speech of the Joint Under-Secretary of State in winding up the debate we felt that in both Ministers there was an awareness of the problem with which we are concerned and also keen sympathy, and we are very grateful indeed for that.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.