HC Deb 14 October 1952 vol 505 cc147-51
Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe

I beg to move, in page 3, line 42, after "section," to insert: to consider from time to time, having regard to the existing circumstances of the area for which the committee is constituted and of the proposed development of that area, the requirements of the area as respects licensed premises, the accommodation and amenities which should be provided thereat and the facilities which should be available thereat for obtaining both intoxicating liquor and meals and other refreshments. (2) In the light of their consideration of the matters aforesaid, any such committee shall proceed. There is a group of Amendments the results of which the House might perhaps like me to indicate. They are at line 42 and at the beginning of page 4, line 1, to leave out "(2) Any such," and to insert "and the", and page 4, line 7, at the end, to insert: including, unless the committee in any particular case otherwise decide, provisions for the service of meals and of refreshments other than intoxicating liquor. They deal with the points raised during debates in Committee when there was discussion as to the powers of the committee to specify the accommodation, amenities and services to be provided in new licensed premises. The general view of the Committee appeared to be that committees under the Bill should have not only the power but a duty to see that the new licensed premises in their new towns as a whole provide a good range of services and amenities, including in particular meals and non-alcoholic refreshments.

I promised, first, to put into the Bill an express reference to the provision of meals and refreshments and, secondly, to reconsider Clause 3 generally with a view to giving the committees clearer directions to take into consideration various matters mentioned in the course of the debate.

Right hon. and hon. Members opposite have put down Amendments on the same point and I will mention them because I am accepting one of them. If the right hon. Member will allow me, in view of the circumstances, to indicate the position, I propose to accept the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) and I hope he bears me no ill will that I added my name to his Amendment in case circumstances of time caused it to be lost. That Amendment is, in page 4, line 3, to leave out from "and," to "contain," and to insert "shall."

Therefore, with my Amendments and the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, which I accept, I hope that I have met substantially the views of the Committee. I know that I am taking a slightly different line from that suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), but I think that I have gone a considerable way to meet him. The only matter which, as I understand his Amendment, is not met is that perhaps I have not followed to the extent that he has the significance of the words … consultation and negotiation. … that occur in his Amendment.

I have tried to take into account these Opposition Amendments as well as the points made during the debate. The difficulty which I have with the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is that I felt that it did not quite fit the circumstances and that the right hon. Gentleman's taking it from Section 4 (1) of the Licensing Planning (Temporary Provisions) Act. 1945, did not quite fit the circumstances.

With regard to the third Amendment, if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirling will allow me to say so shortly and with great respect, I wanted to find words which, in my view, were more precise but would cover the points he had made.

If I may sum up, the first Amendment with which I am now dealing will require the committee under the Bill to reconsider the requirements of its area as respects licensed premises, the accommodation and amenities which should be provided … and the facilities which should be available … for obtaining both intoxicating liquor and meals and other refreshments. and to make their proposals in the light of their consideration of these matters.

I accept the first Amendment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirling so that the committee would be required to specify the accommodation, services and amenities to be provided in every case. Thirdly, the third Amendment with which we are now dealing will require the committee to include provision for the service of meals and non-alcoholic refreshments … unless the committee in any particular case otherwise decide, … The general effect will be that the committee will first have to consider its area as a whole with a view to meeting local requirements in the way of licensed premises, and secondly will have to draw up a detailed specification in every case and, in particular, will have to provide for meals, etc., unless, after considering the matter, it finds a reason for not doing so; and then the licensing justices have to be satisfied.

I felt that I had to leave that safety valve. I know that some hon. Members opposite may think that I should not have done it; but one can imagine a certain class of premises, necessary for the requirements of a part of a town, which would be of a small type where these other amenities would not be suitable and yet the premises would meet a need. I have turned it that way and have said that they must think of and provide these things unless they are satisfied that the contrary should be the case.

I cannot expect and do not expect that the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) should be completely satisfied, but I ask him to believe that I have tried to meet his point. I have been greatly helped by what was said from all quarters in committee on this. I hope that our proposals will go some way to meet the results which the hon. Member desires.

9.30 p.m.

Mr. Ede

It is impossible in the circumstances in which we are meeting to do other than express regret that the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not accept the form of words that we put on the Order Paper, because that would have enabled him to give an explanation about what he proposes to do with the existing licences.

Of course, it is impossible to do more now than indicate that that is the position, and I sincerely hope that tomorrow, when we have the Third Reading, we may get from him some explanation of the way in which he proposes that the existing licences, where they are in excess of what will be required, shall be dealt with by the committee and the machinery which he proposes.

Apart from that, I can assure him that my hon. Friends appreciate the way in which he has met the spirit of the considerations which we have put before him. As an ex-President of the Ramblers' Association, I should particularly like to express the hope that he will find some opportunity of extending some of these provisions to other Measures governing licensing provisions elsewhere, so that people who are trying to enjoy the beauties of the countryside generally may be in a position to have facilities that are now to be assured to inhabitants in the new towns.

Mr. J. Hudson

The Home Secretary rightly surmised that we on this side of the House should be disappointed with his new offer. I agree that he has gone some way, but there will be left a serious problem to be dealt with. With all that is involved in the development of new towns, I do not think that merely for the sake of leaving in the middle of a town some unsightly place where drink may be the main thing for which that place is organised, he ought to have declined to accept the reasonable Amendment and the genuine appeals that we have made to him on this issue.

As the time is now against me and other hon. Members, I should like to say that the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself faces the same situation that I face. He has not been able to make a statement that can really be satisfactory to the country or to the House on what is involved in this proposal. I submit that although he is about the best of a bad bunch sitting on the Front Bench opposite, he ought to feel thoroughly ashamed of himself for having imposed on the House the gag by which we are prevented from dealing with a genuine proposal. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) ought to feel as much ashamed as anyone.

I know, as I look around the House, that there are many Members present who are aware that had this issue been more fully explained by the right hon. and learned Gentleman it could have been made to look infinitely better in the country than it looks now. The position appears to be this: this House winds up these discussions with the proposal that might have helped to make decent places of all these new public houses, yet—

It being Twenty-five Minutes to Ten o' Clock (consideration of the Bill having been entered upon at Twenty-five Minutes to Four o' Clock), Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Order (21st July), to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.

Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments proposed by Members of the Government of which notice had been given.

Amendments made: In page 4, line 1, leave out "(2) Any such," and insert "and the."

In line 3, leave out from "and," to "contain," and insert "shall."

In line 7, at end, insert: including, unless the committee in any particular case otherwise decide, provisions for the service of meals and of refreshments other than intoxicating liquor."—[Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe.]