HC Deb 28 May 1952 vol 501 cc1369-71
Mr. Fenner Brockway

I wish to raise with you, Mr. Speaker, a point of order of which I have given you notice. It refers to an event on Friday, and I have delayed it until today so that the hon. Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) could be present. I wish to ask if it is in order, and in accordance with the practice and spirit of the House, for an hon. Member to ask for a count with the object of adjourning the proceedings of the House, and then to absent himself from the House while the count is being taken?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member was kind enough to give me notice of his point of order. All I can say is that I have known it frequently done. It is generally the responsibility of the hon. Member who is in charge of a Motion to secure that he keeps a quorum of the House until his business is transacted. I know of nothing that is out of order in the practice to which the hon. Member refers; and, I repeat, I have known ht happen on many occasions.

Mr. J. Griffiths

As one who was present on Friday, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you are aware that the action of the hon. Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) in demanding a count and then walking out of the House was resented by all hon. Members?

Mr. Speaker

As the right hon. Gentleman may recollect, I came into the House when the count was actually in progress.

Mr. Pannell

Could you also inform me, Mr. Speaker, in relation to the same case, whether it is in accordance with the spirit of the House for an hon. Member to be associated during the morning as seconder with another Motion which, by the indulgence of the House, had gone through, and then, having got that Motion through, to call a count in order to jettison the Motion of my hon. Friend?

Mr. J. Griffiths

May I put a further point to you, Mr. Speaker? Counting out the House by the Opposition against the Government is party political warfare, but Friday is Private Members' day. In view of the fact that Private Members' days are not very numerous, but are few and far between, do you think that what was done was a desirable practice, and that Private Members should be denied their opportunities by means of this practice?

Mr. Speaker

There is a special Standing Order dealing with Fridays and the counting of the House, and there is nothing that I can see in it to indicate that the counting of the House is at all out of order. Otherwise, the Standing Order would not be there. I must leave that to hon. Members' own views.

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton

Mr. Speaker, are you prepared to express an opinion on the good taste involved in a matter of this sort?

Mr. S. Marshall

May I inform the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) that his own party did the same thing four weeks ago, on a Friday?

Mr. Brockway

Is it not the case that on the occasion when it was done on this side of the House, four weeks ago, the hon. Member who called for a count remained in the House while the count was being taken? Is that not always the practice, that a Member of the House is responsible for any matter which he brings to your attention?

Mr. Speaker

I can only repeat that it is the general practice of the House that the Member who is in charge of the Motion before the House is responsible for seeing that a quorum is present.

The Prime Minister

Would it not be a very serious matter, Sir, if a debate took place without a proper quorum of Members present?

Mr. Speaker

The Standing Orders dealing with the quorum are put in for that express purpose. The only convention of which I am aware—and I may as well mention it in this connection—is that I know it has been considered in the past to be contrary to practice to count the House when an hon. Member has the Adjournment Motion.

Mr. Lewis

When an hon. Member rises to catch your eye, Sir, and asks you to rule whether or not there is a quorum, is he not asking the Chair a point of order? Therefore, if he walks out while you are testing the House, or giving your Ruling. is that not really an affront to Mr. Speaker? Is it not an insult to Mr. Speaker whilst acting in accordance with his office?

Mr. Speaker

Opinions may vary on that, When an hon. Member draws the attention of the Chair to the fact that 40 Members are not present, he is not really asking for a ruling from the Speaker. He is setting in motion the Standing Order, in which the action of the Chair is automatic and is commanded by the House. In further reply to the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), it is true that Fridays are Private Members' days, but matters of great controversy do arise on Private Members' days, and often they are not on party lines at all. Any Member who desires to bring the discussion to an end can avail himself of the Standing Order.