§ 46. Mr. G. R. Straussasked the Prime Minister whether he will issue instructions that the only Ministers that civil servants should consult and report to are those in charge of their respective Departments.
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir. Both Ministers and their Civil Service advisers fully understand their duties and obligations.
§ Mr. StraussIn view of that reply and the right hon. Gentleman's reply on Monday, in which he told me that supervising or co-ordinating Ministers now consult directly the civil servants who report directly to them, may I ask him two questions? First, whether this dual allegiance of civil servants is not a complete innovation in our Government machinery, and, second, whether it is not bound to undermine, or even destroy, the authority of the Departmental Ministers and generally lead to serious administrative confusion?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir. I do not think any of these evils will result in a Government which is united by loyal comradeship in the public service.
§ Mr. Herbert MorrisonDoes the Prime Minister really wish to convey to the House that the overlords—the so-called supervising or co-ordinating Ministers—go behind the backs of a Departmental Minister, send for his civil servants, consult them, and presumably give them instructions? Is not this the beginning of a complete abdication of Parliamentary responsibility by Departmental Ministers which will lead to a chaotic situation?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not think that that statement has any relation to the movement of events.
§ Mr. MorrisonI think it has. May I ask the Prime Minister what happens if the so-called co-ordinating or supervising Minister gives one instruction to a Departmental civil servant and his own Minister gives him another instruction? What does he do then?
§ The Prime MinisterNo such occasion is likely to arise. If it did arise it would be rapidly adjusted by a word between the Ministers—
§ Mr. MorrisonUnderlings.
§ The Prime Minister—between the overlords and the under-lords; I think that the right hon. Gentleman said under- lords. [HON. MEMBERS: "No; underlings."] The right hon. Gentleman managed a lot of them in his time.
§ Mr. Philip Noel-BakerIs it not very much in the interests of the Government that the Cabinet should have its advice about a Departmental matter from the man in charge of the Department, and under any other system will not the position both of the Minister and of the civil servant become quite impossible?
§ The Prime MinisterIf the position of the Minister and the civil servant becomes quite impossible, no doubt events will arise to bring the whole subject in a very vivid form before the House of Commons.