§ 16. Lieut.-Colonel H. M. Hydeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will reconsider the decision to close the Public Record Office Museum to the public, in view of the interest shown in this institution by overseas visitors.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) on 13th May.
§ Mr. Woodrow WyattDoes the hon. Gentleman realise that as a result of this cheese-paring economy people cannot even now see the Domesday Book or the log of Nelson's "Victory"?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIf the hon. Gentleman refers to the answer to which I referred my hon. and gallant Friend, he will see that the method by which the reduction of staff imposed on this institution is implemented is a matter that has been left to the authorities in question.
§ Mr. WyattThe hon. Gentleman has left them no option. He has made them reduce their staff and they have to close this museum to conform to his instructions.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIf the hon. Gentleman will study the answer to which I have referred, he will not necessarily come to that conclusion.
§ 23. Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when it is proposed to close to the public the Record Office Museum in Chancery Lane; and how much will be saved thereby.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI am informed that the Museum will not be open after Friday, 16th May, 1952. For the answer to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) on 13th May.
§ Lieut.-Colonel LiptonIs the hon. Gentleman aware that it is as a direct result of Treasury instructions that this mean little parsimony is being imposed, and as the total amount involved is not more than £1,322, will the hon. Gentleman give me permission to organise a flag day to keep this Museum open?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs far as I know, I have no authority either to compel the hon. and gallant Gentleman to organise a flag day for any legitimate objective, or to prevent him from doing so.
§ 24. Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many State art galleries and museums have 1614 been closed to the public since 1st November last; and how much has been saved thereby.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterFor the answer to the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Kaberry), on 13th May. I am informed that the institutions concerned expect to save about £10,000 a year by these measures.
§ Lieut.-Colonel LiptonCan the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, in spite of these decisions, British citizens and foreign visitors will not be denied a glimpse of some of our artistic and historic treasures?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterAs I told the hon. and gallant Gentleman in answering a previous Question, the exact implementation of these economy measures is left to the museum authorities themselves. The hon. and gallant Gentleman can be assured that it will be in only a very limited number of cases that complete closure will take place.
§ 27. Lieut.-Colonel Hydeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what parts of the British Museum, normally open to the public, have been closed; and when it is proposed to reopen them.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterNo part of the British Museum has been closed, but I understand that the Upper Egyptian and Assyrian and West Asiatic Rooms, and the Gallery of Oriental Art are open only on even dates, while the Prehistoric Room, and Asiatic Salon, the Indian Room, the Chinese Room and the Ethnographical Gallery are open only on odd dates. It is for the trustees to decide to what rooms the public should be admitted, and at what times, but in so far as removal of the restrictions may depend on the authorisation of additional staff I am unable to say when this will be. The museums cannot be exempted from making a contribution to the staff economies which are at present being made throughout the Civil Service.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HydeIs my hon. Friend aware that the British Museum is one of our national institutions, and that it is viewed with tremendous respect by overseas visitors to this country, who will be extremely disappointed to find when they go there that these galleries are closed?
§ Miss Jennie LeeIs the hon. Gentleman aware that these arrangements are confusing to all except experts, and will he take great care to see that buildings of this kind are available to the general public, particularly on holidays and at times when people who earn their daily bread have opportunity to go to them?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterWe are very anxious that these museums, with their priceless national treasures, shall be open as much as possible to the public, but we must leave to the museum authorities freedom to decide—
§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter—in what way they will implement the reductions in staff which our national economic position dictates.
§ Mr. MarloweWould not the necessity for all these economies have been avoided if the last Government had done their job properly?
§ Lieut.-Colonel LiptonWould the hon. Gentleman tell the House what directions the Treasury gave to the British Museum as to how many members of its staff the Museum was required to dispense with as a result of the Government's instructions in this matter?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIf the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a Question on that subject it will be answered.
§ Mr. WyattDoes the hon. Gentleman realise that the British Museum has had now to dispense with cleaners so that they cannot evil keep the Museum clean? Is he aware that these galleries have not been closed, either on odd or even dates, since the British Museum was opened in the days of King George III?
§ Mr. Julian SnowWould the Financial Secretary take his party on a conducted tour round the British Museum so that they may learn a little culture?
§ Lieut.-Colonel HydeIn view of the unsatisfactory reply I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.
§ 29. Mr. Wyattasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the nature of the instructions he issued to national museums and art galleries to economise 1616 in manpower; and what is the estimate of the total savings to be achieved thereby.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterMy right hon. Friend asked each authority concerned to reduce its staff to a certain figure by 30th June, 1952. That figure was fixed with due regard to the different circumstances of each individual establishment and to the desirability of spreading fairly between Departments generally their contributions to his general campaign for staff economy. It was left to the authorities concerned to decide in detail, in the light of their intimate knowledge of all the circumstances, how best to achieve the required saving.
The staff reductions expected in the national museums and galleries are about 84 posts. The estimated financial saving is £30,000 a year.
§ Mr. WyattIn view of this barbarous attack on the arts it is useless to appeal to the Government on civilised grounds, but, nevertheless, is the hon. Gentleman aware that even on crude commercial considerations he may lose more than he will save because foreign visitors will be put off from coming here when they hear that the Tory Government are starting to close museums and art gallaries?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterStripped of its adjectives, the essence of that supplementary question could well be directed against each and every economy that is suggested.
§ Miss LeeIs the hon. Gentleman aware that the final decisions in these matters must rest with this House and not with the staffs immediately employed, and as all Members of this House are opposed to the barbarism—and cowardice—of these decisions, and as it is obvious that some hon. Members even of his own party share our point of view, will he give us an opportunity to debate this matter properly and express our opinion in the Lobby?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe provision of opportunities to debate any particular matter is not for me but for the Leader of the House.
Mr. W. M. F. VaneCan my how Friend say whether, even if particular galleries must be closed from time to time to the general public, the articles in them 1617 will be made available for study by students who have special reasons for seeing them?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterPerhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.
§ Mr. G. R. MitchisonIs the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government's provision for museums and art galleries and their opening are by no means acceptable, and does he, and does his right hon. Friend, think that these petty, obscurantist, reactionary economies are really worth it, having regard to the effect they will have on the reputation of this country and on the reputation of the gentlemen who make and insist upon them?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIt is perfectly easy to make a point like that with respect to one particular economy, but the hon. and learned Gentleman must realise that we have a considerable task in restoring our national economy.
§ Mr. WyattCan the hon. Gentleman say why the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here to deal with these Questions? Nothing like this has been heard of since Field Marshal Goering said, "When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my gun"?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI am less of an authority on Field Marshal Goering than the hon. Member.
§ 30. Mr. Wyattasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the British Water Colour Collection at the Tate Gallery, which has had to be closed as a result of his instructions to save manpower, was the only one of its kind in the world previously open all the time; and, whether he will at once arrange for its reopening.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterMy right hon. Friend is aware that the authorities of the Tate Gallery decided to effect the staff reduction asked for by closing the lower ground floor rooms which contain the gallery's water colour collections, The Gallery cannot be exempt from these staff economies, but it is for the Trustees to decide what parts of the Gallery may or may not be opened given the reduced staff.
§ Mr. WyattIs the hon. Gentleman not aware that in the opinion of many experts British water colour painters are 1618 the best type of painters produced by this country, and that he is now preventing both our own people and foreign visitors from seeing their work; and is it not time that he dropped all this pretence of trying to put responsibility on the museums, because if they do not close one lot of galleries under his instructions they have to close another?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI do not accept the suggestion in the last part of the supplementary question. As to the first part, I do not propose to indulge in an artistic controversy with the hon. Member.
§ Captain RyderIs it not a fact that if reasonable economies had been effected in earlier years these very sweeping economies would not now be necessary?
§ Mr. G. R. StraussDoes the Financial Secretary suggest that the closing of the British Water Colour Collection can, either directly or indirectly, help to solve our balance of payments problem?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe right hon. Gentleman will, no doubt, from his own administrative experience, be aware that effective national economies are generally achieved by the sum total of a large number of economies in themselves quite small.
§ 31. Mr. Douglas Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will reconsider his decision to close temporarily certain departments of the British Museum, the Tate Gallery and the Public Record Office.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe museums and galleries were asked to make their contribution to the campaign for Civil Service manpower economies, and I understand that the authorities of the institutions to which the right hon. Gentleman refers have decided that the method of securing the necessary economies should be to restrict the admission of the public to certain departments.
In view of the general reductions in the Civil Service which it is necessary to secure in the national interest, I could not agree at present to raise the staff limit for these departments.
§ Mr. JayIn view of the feeling of almost the whole House, may I in all earnestness, and without the use of any adjectives, ask the hon. Gentleman to 1619 consult with his right hon. Friend and to think about this matter again? Is it not really false economy run mad to spend public money abroad on inviting tourists to come to this country for them to find when they get here that, for the sake of a few pounds a year, these institutions have been closed? Is it not really making us ridiculous in the eyes of the world, and will he not think again?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThe right hon. Gentleman is, of course, aware that this matter cannot be considered separately from the whole mass of detailed economies which Her Majesty's Government have been compelled to make by the situation they inherited.
§ Mr. JayWill the hon. Gentleman, while not giving any decision now, at least assure us that he will consult with his right hon. Friend on this matter again?