HC Deb 07 May 1952 vol 500 cc356-62
6. Sir D. Savory

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will submit to the approval of the House of Commons the contractual agreement now being negotiated with the Federal Government of Western Germany before final ratification.

Mr. Eden

Yes, Sir.

Sir D. Savory

Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly explain how it is that members of the Federal Parliament in Bonn have seen copies of these agreements and even have some in their possession? May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will give Members of this House an opportunity of making suggestions with regard to these agreements and that we shall not be presented with a fait accompli as we were when the Italian and Finnish treaties were laid before us?

Mr. Eden

My hon. Friend knows the constitutional position perfectly well. I have said "Yes" in answer to his Question. If he wants to ask another Question, perhaps he will put it down.

10. Mr. Bing

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the terms of the contractual agreement being negotiated between the British and West German Governments; and how far, as a result of these agreements, any further occupational costs will fall on the British taxpayer.

26. Mr. Desmond Donnelly

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give an assurance that the proposed new contractual relationship with the German Federal Republic will not contain any financial clauses that will increase the burden falling upon the British taxpayer in relation to the common defenses of Western Europe.

35. Mr. Eric Fletcher

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how much extra he estimates will be the cost of our Armed Forces in Germany if the present German contribution is reduced, as officially proposed, to enable the Germans to re-arm themselves.

Mr. Eden

As I informed the House on 28th February, the Federal Government has agreed that from the date of the entry into force of the contractual agreement until 30th June, 1953, it will pay 850 million deutschemarks—about £70 million—a month to cover the German contribution to the European Defence Community and the support of the Allied Forces stationed in the Federal Republic.

While this total should be sufficient to cover both sets of costs during this period, the amount of the total which will be available to meet the costs of the Allied Forces is still the subject of negotiation. I am not yet, therefore, in a position to make any final statement.

Mr. Bing

Would the right hon. Gentleman deal with the first part of the Question, which asks him whether he will state the terms of the contractual agreement? Does he not consider it highly undesirable, as suggested by his hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Sir D. Savory), that these matters should have been discussed by the German Parliament and not disclosed to Members of the British Parliament?

Mr. Eden

Is the hon. and learned Member dealing with the terms of the contractual negotiation?

Mr. Bing

Yes, the first part of the Question which asks whether he will state the terms of the contractual agreement.

Mr. Eden

These are being negotiated between us and the German Government. The position with regard to these negotiations is perfectly well known to the House. The responsibility for the signature of the agreement is that of the Government of the day. I have repeatedly told the House, and I again repeat, that there will of course be full opportunity for debate before ratification takes place.

Mr. Bing

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the terms of this agreement have been disclosed to individual members of the German Parliament, and will he not afford the same facility to Members of the British Parliament?

Mr. Eden

There may have been some disclosure of information to leaders of the parties—I do not know—but our constitutional position is perfectly clear. The Government of the day takes responsibility for concluding any negotiation, but it is for Parliament to ratify. I have repeatedly stated, and I repeat now, that this House will have the fullest opportunity for discussion before ratification.

Mr. Fletcher

Does the Foreign Secretary's reply with regard to the cost mean that, as has been reported in the Press, if the present financial negotiations go through and permit of German re-armament, the British taxpayer will have to pay between £150 million and £200 million more to the British occupation costs in Germany than at present?

Mr. Eden

No, Sir. What I have been dealing with is the period up to 30th June next year in respect of which, although I cannot undertake, I think that the sum available will cover both matters. After that we shall be in a new position, which will require a new assessment. But the House must understand that the problem which we are faced with is creating a defensive position in Germany, which is a problem that the late Government had to face and entered, therefore, into these discussions.

Mr. Michael Foot

Has the right hon. Gentleman made inquiries about this alleged disclosure of part of this information in Bonn and, if not, does he not think he ought to do so if they are, in fact, in possession of information which is denied to us?

Mr. Eden

Yes, I have made inquiries. I have asked the High Commissioner for a report. But our own constitutional position is perfectly plain. The Government of the day takes responsibility for the signature of the agreement. Parliament has every right, and—I have pledged repeatedly—will have the fullest opportunity for discussion before ratification.

19. Mr. A. C. Manuel

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when it is intended that the contractual agreements between the British and West German Governments will be ready for signature; and if he will submit these agreements in draft to Parliament before signature.

Mr. Eden

On the first part of the Question, I have nothing to add to the reply given on this point to the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) on 5th May. With regard to the second part of the Question, I would refer to the reply already given today to my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim. South (Sir D. Savory).

24. Mr. Stephen Swingler

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the present annual output of occupational costs in respect of West Germany that falls on the British taxpayer; and what amount is now being proposed in negotiations with the West German Government.

Mr. Eden

If the hon. Member is referring to internal occupation costs, these are incurred in German currency and none fall on the British taxpayer. External occupation costs, which include military equipment and pay of Her Majesty's Forces, have always been met by the Powers concerned.

As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I have already given to the hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing).

Mr. Swingler

Could the Foreign Secretary now say when it will be possible for him to give an estimate in plain terms of what is the increase in these costs as a result of this treaty?

Mr. Eden

I thought that I could hardly have made it plainer. The position is that, until a certain date next year—it may be in June, or it may be a little earlier—there will be no change in respect of our occupation costs. After that date, and I cannot say what date it will be, because it depends how far expenditure is divided between the German contribution and our own—it may be the end of April or the end of June—after that date, there will certainly be an extra contribution of ours on account of the contribution the Germans themselves are making.

Mr. Shinwell

In any event, if some time there is to be a peace treaty concluded with Germany, will it not be necessary to readjust the occupation costs?

Mr. Eden

That is absolutely inevitable.

27. Mr. Donnelly

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state in terms of prices at the latest convenient date the percentage of defence expenditure in terms of the national product proposed to be expended by Great Britain for the year 1952-53 and the corresponding percentage which it is proposed under the contractual agreement between Great Britain and the West German Republic shall be expended by Western Germany.

Mr. Eden

The expenditure by the German Federal Republic recommended by the Executive Bureau of the Temporary Council Committee of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation as comparable with the defence efforts of the other principal Western countries in the year ending 30th June, 1953, and accepted by the Federal Government as a basis for its defence expenditure, was 10.5 per cent. of the estimated gross national product. When the United Kingdom defence effort was examined by the Temporary Council Committee last November, it was estimated that our defence expenditure would, on the same basis, amount to 12.8 per cent. of gross national product. Since then, circumstances have changed, but material is not yet available to provide an up-to-date comparative figure.

Mr. Donnelly

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to give us some further figures?

Mr. Eden

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will consult me about that. I should like to give the information as soon as I can. The point is that actually our expenditure is not now as high as 12.8 per cent. It is difficult to give a figure, but I will communicate with the hon. Gentleman and give it to him.

Mr. David Logan

If Soviet troops had control of Europe, would it be cheaper for the British taxpayers?

40. Mr. T. Driberg

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what conditions or safeguards there will be under the new contractual relationship with the German Federal Republic, to ensure the promotion of democratic institutions and trade unions in Germany and to prevent the revival of militaristic nationalism, anti-semitism and other phenomena characteristic of the Nazi régime.

Mr. Eden

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price) on 5th December last. The importance of measures to prevent a revival of undemocratic tendencies, whether of the Right or the Left, has been fully taken into account in the negotiations between the German Federal Republic and the three Occupying Powers.

Mr. Driberg

If there are such safeguards or guarantees, as was also indicated by the Minister of State in his reply to Question No. 41, how is that reconcilable with the resolution of the Bundestag demanding complete sovereignty for the Federal Republic?

Mr. Eden

Well, Sir, certain arrangements have been entered into in these negotiations. As I have explained many times to the House today, there will be full opportunity for this House to debate those arrangements before they are finally ratified. Clearly, I cannot go into the details of them at this time.

44. Mr. Cledwyn Hughes

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the order of the day, approved by the French National Assembly on 19th February, 1952, which declares that the contractual agreements to be made with the West German Government must include the necessary guarantees on the subject of armament manufacture, police and division of financial burdens; what instructions have been given to Her Majesty's Government's representatives in regard to these conditions in connection with the contractual agreements now being negotiated between the British Government and the Federal German Republic; and what are the terms of the necessary guarantees upon which Her Majesty's Government will insist.

Mr. Eden

As regards German armaments manufacture, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I have given to the hon. Member for Ayrshire Central (Mr. Manuel). The European Defence Community Treaty provides also for supervision of national police forces.

In regard to the German financial contribution to Western Defence, I would refer to my reply to the hon. and learned Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing).

Mr. Hughes

Can the Foreign Secretary give the House an assurance that in any contractual agreement to which this country is partner, the wishes of the French people on these vital matters will be respected?

Mr. Eden

I think that the French Government must speak for the French people. I do not know that I quite understand what the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question means. My responsibility is to speak for the people of this country.

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