EDUCATION, WALES

HC Deb 11 March 1952 vol 497 cc1323-54

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Butcher.]

5.31 p.m.

Mr. George Thomas (Cardiff, West)

I welcome the opportunity of raising in the House this afternoon the question of education in the Principality of Wales, and it is a good thing that the House has given us such a good interval for our debate.

I want to raise the question of the effect of the Government's education policy on the schools throughout Wales, where one of the outstanding characteristics of the people is a passionate desire to give their children a sound education. There is no country in the world where the value of a good education is more appreciated than in Wales, and in no part of the United Kingdom has the Conservative Party's mean approach to the service of education caused more anxiety and alarm.

I want, first, to refer to the building programme throughout the Principality. I understand that no less than five Welsh local authorities have been refused a single building project during the coming year; that in Breconshire, Montgomeryshire, Merthyr, Anglesey and Pembroke-shire not a single building project is included in the Estimates which the Minister is prepared to approve.

In addition, there are five Welsh local authorities for each of whom only one building project has been approved: Newport, Denbigh, Caernarvonshire, Merioneth and Swansea, Swansea, that received such a severe buffeting in the late war and which has such a great need. is, I understand, allowed only one building project by the Ministry during the coming year.

In Wales, we have our share of schools that are a disgrace to a civilised community. In the days just prior to the late war, the Leader of the Liberal Party was responsible for the production of a report on the causes of tuberculosis in the Principality. One of the major causes that he submitted in his report to the House was the condition of the rural schools of Wales, where the water runs down the walls and round the floor, and where on a wet day water is everywhere except in the school tap—and usually there is none there.

I ask the Minister, who I am very glad to see present, whether she is satisfied that she is not sentencing another generation of Welsh children to the awful conditions that have already been criticised by hon. Members on both sides of the House. It may well be that an hon. Member opposite will say, "Why was it not put right? You have been in power for six years; therefore all these village schools should have been put right and we ought to have brand new schools everywhere."

The House will be aware that we have had more school building in Wales in the last six years than in the previous 25 years. No one, therefore, can point a finger across to this side of the House and say that we did not have a square deal. We should have liked to have had more, but we had more than we had ever had from any Government that has been in power during my lifetime. I warn the Minister that she will be committing a crime against the next generation of Welsh children if she now puts the brake on any new school buildings in the counties which I have quoted.

I want to refer to the effect of Circular 242, which the Minister, I know, is not very often allowed to forget. When we look through the economies which have been decided upon in the Principality of Wales as the result of the initiative of the Minister herself, we cannot but be alarmed at the prospects for our children. The City of Cardiff, which the Joint Under-Secretary of State responsible for Welsh Affairs has the honour to represent with myself and my colleague, the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), has decided upon a cut of £63,000, a 3½ per cent. cut in its original estimate.

It so happens that the party in power and the local authority in the City of Cardiff are not unsympathetic, to say the least, to the right hon. Lady. Indeed, at times of general elections all those who are in power in Cardiff support the opposite side of the House. I submit that these are not people who would have been anxious to go too far in matters educational.

We have a most progressive chairman of the education authority in the Principality of Cardiff, a man of the party opposite and not of my party, but one whom we all acknowledge to have a very deep interest in matters educational in the Principality. People who are interested in education, regardless of their party, are aghast at the way in which the Ministry are putting the brake upon authorities who want to do the right thing by their children. As the Minister will know, we already have in Cardiff a large amount of leeway to make up, but once again we shall have to mark time and another generation will miss its chance. We can never make up to those children who miss their chance today what they will lose.

Let us look at North Wales, Flintshire. I see that there they have decided that they will have to spend less on furniture. Well and good. But they are cutting down the amount they intend to spend on textbooks for our children. They are to spend less on stationery and less on nursery and primary schools. They have also decided upon an increase in the size of classes.

Most hon. Members are aware that I am a schoolmaster by profession. I say to the House that when a schoolmaster asks for smaller classes it is not because it is easier for the schoolmaster. Indeed, it is a great deal harder for the schoolmaster with a small class than with a large class, because so much more personal attention can be given to the children in a small class than in a large one, where the schoolmaster congratulates himself if he is able to keep order. I believe that in Flintshire grave damage will be done to the education service by the cuts that have been decided upon.

When I look at the County of Glamorganshire, I find that there is an estimated cut of £183,705, which represents a cut of 3.09 per cent. My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins) will probably want to catch the eye of Mr. Speaker in the course of the debate, so I will leave the subject of Breckonshire to him to deal with.

In Pembrokeshire they have decided to save money by the appointment of younger teachers. I am all for younger teachers having appointments, but I do hope they will not say in Pembrokeshire that experience does not count. They have already asked the advice of the Minister, or sought her observations, about refusing admission to schools of children who have not reached the age of five years on 1st April next. Apparently they want to dispense with all nursery classes and nursery schools. I hope that when the Minister replies she will give me the assurance, as she did to one of my hon. Friends about another authority, that she will not countenance this attack upon the nursery schools in the Pembrokeshire area.

I notice that the Pembrokeshire authority proposes to reduce by £3,000 their estimate for the upkeep of school buildings. I submit to the Minister that this is a short-sighted policy. If we do not spend on the repair of our school buildings this year, we shall only have a bigger bill than ever next year. I hope that the Minister will intimate to that authority that she has no desire for that to be done. There are the usual economies in the youth service, in technical institutes and evening classes. It is a sorry story with which I hope the Minister will deal when she replies tonight.

Amongst the authorities in Wales of which I know who are proposing to try to save some money by having fewer teachers, Flintshire and Pembrokeshire stand out. Amongst those who propose to save money on further education, scholarships and aid to students, Pembrokeshire stands out. On reduced estimates for repairs and decorations Flint-shire and Pembrokeshire again stand out, as does Flintshire on the question of school equipment.

I hope that the Minister will be able to give us tonight an idea of the general effect of her circular on the service of education, on the buildings that are available and also its effect upon scholarships and aids to students. I hope also that she will give us an assurance tonight that she will not countenance an attempt by the meaner authorities of the Principality to cut down their aid to students going to college.

Now I want to refer to a question of which I have already given notice to the Minister. It concerns handicapped children and the provision of a school for them in the Principality. Last Thursday I asked the Minister if she would make a statement concerning the progress being made in the provision of a school for physically handicapped children in Wales. I ask the House to note with care her reply. The right hon. Lady said: I hope that the Glamorgan local education authority will proceed with the purchase of a suitable site and with the planning of the school at an early date."—[OFFIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1952; Vol. 497, c. 634.] I suggest that answer was intended to convey to the House that this project had the full blessing of the Minister to go ahead as quickly as the local authority could do so. That is the only possible meaning we can put upon the reply which the Minister gave: that she said to the Glamorgan County Council that the sooner they could do it, the better. That was the impression I received, and the Minister will remember that I so fell for the reply that I thanked her for it.

Now I find that the Director of Education for the County of Glamorgan has written to Mr. Northam, the Secretary of the Cardiff and District Spastics Association, a letter which makes nonsense of the misleading reply which the Minister gave to the House last Thursday. I propose to read the letter: Dear Mr. Northam, I thank you for your letter of 27th February. As you are probably aware, the Glamorgan Authority had proposed to proceed with the erection of a hospital school for physically handicapped children, including spastics, in the year 1952–53. This school, of course, was to provide for the needs of neighbouring Authorities (including Cardiff as well). The Ministry of Education declared some time ago their readiness to include this school in the authorised building programme for 1952–53, but a communication has recently been received that consideration will be given to the inclusion of this school in the provisional building programme for 1953–54. The Director goes on to say: Although I regret that I have no encouraging news to give you, I can assure you that the recent decision "— that is, the Minister's decision— caused great disappointment to the members of the Authority who are only too well aware of the very great need to improve the educational provision for handicapped children. Yours sincerely, E. Stephens, Director of Education. I suggest that inadvertently the Minister misled the House last Thursday afternoon with the reply she gave to me. She certainly avoided revealing the full truth of the answer that my Question sought to bring out. Surely the Minister will be ready to apologise tonight for misleading at least one hon. Member and, I believe, all hon. Members on this side of the House on that important question?

There is a special need for a school for handicapped children in the Principality of Wales, where it is estimated that we have nearly 400 spastic children. These are children who have no muscular control but whose minds can be as sharp as razors. Indeed, I have met some of these spastic individuals with first-class honours degrees. Given the opportunity, they can obtain out of life not quite as much perhaps as the normally healthy able individual, but much more than otherwise they would have.

There is not a school from the north to the south or from the east to the west of Wales catering for spastic children, and now that project again has to be postponed apparently. I ask the Minister to recognise that the policy indicated in that letter from the Director of Education—and I have no reason to doubt that he is conveying the truth to my constituents—would be a cruel, unnecessary and shortsighted one.

We are proud of the fact that we are a democracy, and we are living at a time when the world is divided by the ideological struggle of this century. Surely in a world like this the school takes on a new importance. In my opinion, in a democracy the schoolmaster is quite as important, and perhaps more important, than the sergeant major, and the class room is of more importance than the barrack square. I hope we are not going to cut down the provisions or refuse facilities for provisions of schools for spastic children in Wales because our money is to go for armaments.

Decent people in all parties in Wales—we are not claiming a monopoly of decency—will resent the holding up of this school. I ask the Minister to give the House an assurance that the Glamorgan authority shall have the "all clear" to get on with this school for spastic children.

I understand there have been approaches to the Ministry in connection with the school for subnormal children for the counties of Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and Cardiganshire. I am not in a position to say what state of negotiation that matter has reached, but I earnestly hope that here again the Minister will give the "go ahead" to those authorities. We are very proud that during the previous Administration we set up the Joint Education Committee for Wales, and local authorities in Wales are co-operating in a magnificent manner to make provisions that as individuals they cannot make for their children. I ask the Minister to make sure that where joint endeavours of this sort are entered upon she will not be niggardly in her approach.

I wish to refer to the question of the size of classes in the Principality. We have a good record in this regard, and I think that generally the size of classes in the Principality is smaller than it was in England in the years between the wars. We have always regarded education as a top priority. Working people there will sacrifice almost everything to give their youngsters a chance of a good education. Are we once again to see the size of classes go up throughout the Principality in order that a few pounds shall be saved here or there?

I suggest this is a short-sighted policy which we shall have to put right when the opportunity arises. But it would be much better if the Minister asserted her authority and proved she is the Minister and that the voice we have heard this afternoon is not the voice of the Minister and that she realises all that opportunity denied to youngsters can create in frustration and resentment and will lend her assistance to those who above all are concerned with a square deal for our kiddies who, after all, are not responsible for the mess in which the world finds itself at present.

The people of Wales are a peaceful people, but now they are on the alert and on guard. They are watching the Minister very carefully and I advise her—

Mr. Kenneth Thompson (Liverpool, Walton)

We have only to look at the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) to see that.

Mr. Thomas

We are always a peaceful people, but ready to fight for a just cause, and then we are as warlike as the rest. I warn the Minister and her Parliamentary Secretary and hon. Members behind her who represent scattered Tory seats in Wales that they will not be in the next Parliament if she does not show that justice and consideration which is our due.

5.56 p.m.

Mr. Percy Morris (Swansea, West)

I gladly avail myself of this unexpected opportunity of reinforcing the eloquent plea made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas). He has been good enough not to confine his remarks to the constituency he represents but has extended them to the title he has given the Adjournment debate namely, Welsh education.

I do not wish to engage in repetition, but I wish to assure the Minister that what my hon. Friend has said about spastic schools is of great urgency for the whole of South and West Wales, and that my hon. Friend has earned the gratitude of the Welsh authorities by giving such emphasis to the matter this afternoon. For many years the principal export from Wales seemed to be teachers, preachers and lawyers, but a new situation has developed there in recent years.

Under the encouragement and guidance of the last Government we had embarked, in the County Borough of Swansea, on a very progressive programme of educational facilities for our children. We were hoping—in fact plans had been approved and a site selected—to provide a college of technology that would cater not only for the needs of the children of Swansea but for the whole of South and West Wales. The need for such a college is obvious to anybody who has taken an interest in the industrial development of Wales. Unhappily, on account of Circular 242 and the general atmosphere that now prevails, it seems that that college will not be erected for many years. I beg the Minister to give the matter her attention.

I understand that colleagues of mine from Swansea are waiting on the Department tomorrow to indicate difficulties with which they are confronted in endeavouring to implement a programme which was approved under the last Government. They have made very serious efforts to economise wherever possible but they have not made the mistake of urging an increase in the numbers in classes and neither are they willing to hinder the development of nursery schools. They have assumed that the Minister really means what she says in her circular, that they are not to interfere with the fabric of education. But if they are not to interfere with it they will require some assistance from the right hon. Lady.

Not only are we supporting the claim for this school for spastic children, but we are asking for this college of technology. I would make particular reference to my own constituency, which is a badly blitzed area and especially in need of new schools being built and other schools being re-constructed and modernised. I know of one school for girls which was put up as a temporary school and has already been in existence for 30 years. Instead of having increased educational facilities and of being allowed to widen our scope in that growing industrial area, we are being told that we cannot afford it.

I should have liked to have given the right hon. Lady more notice of this matter. I appreciate that she may not be able to answer on the spur of the moment about the college I have mentioned. But I ask the House to believe that tonight the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, has been the very voice of Wales in these matters. If the right hon. Lady is able to give the assurance he has asked for, and if the blitzed areas will have their difficulties recognised and will be given proper encouragement to provide these facilities, not merely for the training of teachers and preachers, but to provide the technicians so badly required in the industries of Wales, we shall feel that this Adjournment debate has been really worth while.

6.1 p.m.

Mr. Roderic Bowen (Cardigan)

I should like to associate myself in general with the observations already made. I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to two matters in relation to education in which my constituency and neighbouring constituencies are particularly interested at the moment.

The counties of Carmarthen, Pembroke and Cardigan have prepared a scheme for a residential special school for about 60 educationally sub-normal children. This is a scheme which is long overdue, because at the moment no facilities exist in any of these three counties for the educating and training of sub-normal children, and at last a scheme has been prepared. They have a building in view, and, subject to Ministerial sanction, there is no reason why this much needed facility should not be provided.

I need hardly emphasise the need for the school, because there is a very real problem here. Some 60 sub-normal children are now attending an ordinary school in the ordinary way, placing a very great burden upon their parents at home and upon the staff of the schools, which is necessarily unfair to children attending the school in the ordinary way.

Quite apart from that, the fact that these facilities do not exist means that these sub-normal children have very little prospect of that additional training and development which would mean so much to them in enabling them to face life in the ordinary way after suitable training. I therefore urge the Minister to look most sympathetically upon this scheme, because these authorities ought to have moved in this matter long ago.

It is a long-standing problem, but at last they have faced up to the difficulties; these three counties have got together, and that is something which is not easy. The three local education authorities have combined and cooperated to provide a joint school for the three counties, and I hope the Minister will do nothing which will in any way retard the provision of this residential school for sub-normal children in this area.

Another matter to which I wish to direct the Minister's attention is the provision of Welsh books. This has been receiving and is receiving attention from numerous bodies in Wales today, and the joint working party on the publication of Welsh books met recently. I do not want to go into the details of various proposals put forward, but I urge the Minister to adopt a most sympathetic attitude towards this problem.

We have, for example, in Cardiganshire a very excellent county library service—buildings and mobile libraries. There is, contrary to the position in many other parts of Wales, a real demand for Welsh books, and one of the main difficulties is the lack of availability of new Welsh books to meet that demand.

The same problem arises in our schools. The staffs of schools are anxious to give varied and interesting instruction through the medium of Welsh, and if that is to be done satisfactorily there must be an adequate supply of Welsh books. This is a problem which affects, in the main the rural part of Wales, and I urge the Minister to treat most sympathetically the approaches which will be made to her to attempt to solve this problem.

6.7 p.m.

Mr. Goronwy Roberts (Caernarvon)

I wish briefly to draw attention to two points affecting the Welsh educational scheme more than any other at the present time. The first is the question of assistance grants to students provided by local education authorities, which are almost the only agency for this kind of grant, or have been for two or three years.

It would be invidious of me to single out any particular local education authority for deprecation in this respect, and I will not quote examples county by county. But I feel sure that I carry with me Members representing Welsh constituencies on both sides of the House when I say that the variation in the extent and scope of the county assistance grants to Welsh students in universities is most marked.

As a former lecturer of the university most concerned in the Principality, I am bound to say that the arbitrary difference between the grants made available by county A and the grants made available to another student by county B is having a very bad psychological effect upon the students. I wonder whether it would be possible for the Department to bring some kind of benevolent pressure to bear upon the various local education authorities with a view to their more or less "uniformising" their grant policies.

I could give individual examples of say, two students in the same university college studying side by side, reading the same subject, following the same degree scheme, having more or less the same qualifications and scholastic attainments, both entering the university at the same time, but coming from two different local education authority areas and differing in the most marked fashion in the assistance they obtain from their local education authorities.

Mr. Bowen

Does the hon. Gentleman also recognise that that happens in many instances with children attending the same school and living in the same village?

Mr. Roberts

And living in the same street. I recall to mind an example of two university students both in their second year, reading for the same degree, both the children of slate quarriers, and in very much the same economic circumstances, yet because of a certain lack of cohesion in the matter of grants they were receiving different assistance. It varies from county to county, and it varies most arbitrarily also within a single county. I therefore hope that some kind of pressure may be brought to bear on. or leadership given in, that rather difficult and upsetting state of affairs.

The hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Bowen) referred to the interest which is now felt in Wales about the future of the publishing of Welsh books. I happen to have the honour of serving on a small Home Office committee which is investigating among other things the provision of Welsh books, particularly in schools. I will not anticipate the findings of that committee because it has not yet decided on any recommendations, but I will say that we are all familiar with the extraordinary fact that out of the £35 per pupil which is spent annually in primary and secondary schools in England and Wales, as little as 6s. 5d. is spent on the provision of school books. Now that is an extraordinary position for any educational system to be in.

In Wales the position is complicated and worsened by the fact that most of our education authorities are under a statutory obligation to provide reading material in two languages. The problem for the English authorities is a very different one. They find that the cost of teachers' salaries, maintenance, and so on, restricts their expenditure on actual reading books to some 6s. 5d. a year, and that is bad enough in a monolingual area such as we have in England. But in Wales, where the vast majority of local education authorities have an obligation to pursue a bilingual policy of education, that 6s. 5d. must be divided between English reading material and Welsh reading material.

That is not a satisfactory position, and I appeal to the Minister—and to the Parliamentary Secretary whom I believe is sympathetic on this point, as no doubt is the Minister—to see what can be done, not only to have special grants but to vary perhaps the application of the grants formula to the Welsh educational authorities, who have this added obligation of providing reading material in Welsh as well as in English.

6.14 p.m.

Mr. Raymond Gower (Barry)

I shall not detain the House for more than a few moments. I can from my knowledge endorse so much of what has been ably said by the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) and others. Doubtless the Minister is aware, or has noted, the fact that in Wales we tend to set even more store on education than perhaps some parts of England. I think that is true of Scotland, too, possibly due to the history of two countries relatively poor economically, with their populations tending to set a very great deal of importance on bettering the conditions of their children.

That may explain much of the history of education in both Wales and Scotland. In that respect, self-help, if I may so describe it, has featured largely in the historical development of education, and I ask the Minister whether in future, in economies necessitated beyond the present ones, the grants to which reference has been made should be the subject of economies last of all, for they enable so many of the products of our schools to go to universities. They should be the last things to be touched.

With regard to the schools plan, we shall never, in any part of the country, have complete satisfaction. It will be a very long time before anybody can say with any certainty that there are enough schools or teachers. I think that some of the trouble since the war in my own constituency in South Wales, as indeed in other parts of the country, has been due to the fact that, although the schools were planned and have been built, at the same time building development has occurred, with movements and increases of population, so that already some of those school buildings are somewhat inadequate for the neighbourhoods they have to serve. One can only hope that means may be improvised to tide us over that until such time as we can build additional schools.

In that respect, I wish to refer to some of the smaller village schools. It may be said with some justification that these schools are not always as satisfactory as the more modern and more spacious schools we are now erecting. Yet, as we are so terribly short of school buildings, it may be of some help and assistance to lengthen the life of some of these schools, some of which have been forced to close, just as a stop-gap, as it were, until we can afford all the spacious buildings we require.

With those few remarks, I endorse what has been said in this pleasant and non-controversial discussion. We all realise that the Minister's instructions have been by nature of a request rather than a dictate, and that any essential economies will be effected by the local authorities concerned with sense and in such a manner as not to affect the essential basic services at all.

6.23 p.m.

Mr. Cledwyn Hughes (Anglesey)

We are extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) for introducing the subject of Welsh education this afternoon and giving us the opportunity of discussing it. Although he comes from the deep south and I come from the far north, we are at one in our love of education.

In the first place, I should like to follow what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon (Mr. G. Roberts) on the question of county grants. My experience as a member of a local education authority is that the present operation of these grants gives rise to a sense of great frustration amongst students at our university colleges. Today, one sees a student from one county, having obtained two subjects at the advanced level—in what was formerly the higher certificate examination—without a grant from his county authority. He may come from poor circumstances. In the same university there may be a student with similar qualifications from another county, possibly in the same lodgings. Yet the second may be in receipt of a generous grant. That gives rise to a sense of frustration in the student and throughout the entire county from which he comes.

I do not know what the Minister can do about this matter, because I appreciate that she will be unwilling to interfere with that discretion which is the traditional right of local education authorities. However, if she could bring some benevolent pressure to bear on local education authorities in Wales, it would have a salutary effect throughout the Principality, and particularly among the students in our university colleges.

My second point is about school books. As the Minister is aware, at least in some parts of Wales we lay considerable stress on the importance of the Welsh language. Even in those areas where the Welsh language is not common currency—for example, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West—there is great sympathy with our aspirations in this direction. Possibly the Minister may be aware of that, and certainly the Joint Under-Secretary who is responsible for Welsh affairs should know of it.

Fifty years ago it was almost a major crime to speak the Welsh language in a primary school in Wales. The small boy who spoke the language in a primary school was severely caned by the headmaster. But circumstances have changed. We have made progress. Today we lay great emphasis on the importance of the Welsh language. In the county of Anglesey and other counties the Welsh language is given equal status, as indeed it should be, with the English language. Children are allowed to learn their mother tongue as a first language from the moment they enter school.

If children are to learn the Welsh language adequately, then schools must be provided with an adequacy of Welsh books. Today the situation is that they do not receive sufficient Welsh books. This may result in a decline in the knowledge of the language. It is not an understatement to say that the schools of Wales are starved of Welsh books. This is not because Welsh publishers are unable to publish the books in Welsh, but because the present grants for schools are not adequate even to support the production of reprints. Of the £35, which is the average for England and Wales for educating each child in maintained primary and secondary schools, only 6s. 5d. is, on the average, available for the purchase of school hooks.

In Wales, after the heavy cost of English secondary and primary school books has been met out of this sum, the amount left for Welsh books is insufficient to sustain Welsh publishing. Not only do we have the problem of the insufficient supply of Welsh books, but we also have the accompanying problem of the Welsh publishing companies. They are in very deep waters these days.

The solution to this problem can only be in immediate action on the part of the education authorities. If the Minister will encourage the education authorities to supply a sufficiency of Welsh books to schools and give consideration to increased grants she will make an important contribution towards saving our language.

My third and last point is one which is not solely applicable to Wales. It is a problem common to all rural Britain. I refer to the question of transporting children to school. In the sparsely populated areas of Wales this problem is paramount. I have not decided how it can be solved, except possibly by a system of equalisation grants. For instance, the cost of transporting children to school in a City such as Cardiff or Liverpool is negligible compared with the cost in a rural constituency such as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon or my own.

This gives rise to an inequitable state of affairs as between the urban and the rural areas. I hope that the Minister will look into this entire matter, because it places an unfair burden upon our rural areas. These are the three matters to which I should like the Minister to give her sympathetic consideration.

6.28 p.m.

Mr. T. W. Jones (Merioneth)

I wish to confirm what has been said by previous speakers in this debate. I repeat that the people of Wales love education above all else. The most interesting story about the Principality is the one relating to the growth and establishment of the Welsh University. It was not established by wealthy patrons, as other universities have been established, but by the coppers of the poor miners and the quarrymen of North Wales. They went out on Saturday afternoons and collected penny by penny to enable them to establish the first college at Aberystwyth. We love education for education's sake.

I am glad to see present my right hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell). He possesses a miners' first-class certificate, but he had never any ambition to be a first-class manager in a pit. He qualified simply for the sake of qualifying. He studied for the sake of the study. I emphasise that we do that in Wales. What the right hon. Member did can easily be multiplied a hundredfold.

I implore the Minister not to economise by a single penny on education in Wales. There are many reasons for that. I will give one. The Prime Minister has established a new office. We now have a Minister for Welsh Affairs. I am sure that the Minister is anxious to make himself popular with our people. He can do that. I am glad to see that his deputy is present today. But it does not matter what that Minister does, however good he may be in other respects, if he lets us down on education, then down will go his popularity, too. Nothing is more certain than that.

Again, our schools are such that half of them should be treated as slums. In the country villages there are school buildings which are not even fit for animal habitation, let alone for children. We should remember that the child spends 12 years of his life in these buildings and the teacher spends about 50 years there. If there is to be economy, the classes will be increased in size. The Minister might say, "No, we will not allow that," but it can be done in most insidious ways.

I was a teacher some years ago, and I remember H.M. inspector of schools coming round about 1929, in the period following the Labour minority Govern- ment. He went to the headmaster and said, "Jones, I see, has over 60 children in his class. That number must be reduced to below 50." The headmaster replied "I cannot do it. I have neither the buildings nor the staff." The inspector then said, "That is your pigeon, not mine, and when I come here again I want to see 49 on the register."

The inspector went away; what did the headmaster do? He took about a dozen of my children, and placed their names on another register, but left the children with me. I still had 60 children in my class, but had credit for only 49. I was worse off than I was before. I am sure that has been the game in many cases. There are, as the Minister will recognise, tricks in every trade, and even in every profession. I implore the Minister, so far as the Principality is concerned, not to reduce the allocation for the local education authorities of the 13 counties of Wales, whatever other economies are made.

One other point which I want to impress on the Minister, is that, apart from the region around Wrexham, technical education is unknown in North Wales. Children in these areas have no opportunity for getting technical education, and when jobs which demand technical skill and knowledge are available, we have to go across the border to get the people to fill them.

That is not good enough, because we have the brains and the raw material already there. Our children are as good as any others in Britain, and better than most, and I want those children to have the very best opportunities of education. So far as I can see, if the present Government remain in office for the next 10 years—and I hope to goodness they will not be there for more than 12 months—we shall have another generation of boys in North Wales totally deprived of this opportunity of receiving technical education. I appeal to the Minister that, whatever else she may do, she should not make economies in education so far as Wales is concerned.

6.33 p.m.

Mr. Tudor Watkins (Brecon and Radnor)

You will have noticed, Mr. Speaker, that most Members of Parliament have been flustered by the Budget, but we who come from Wales never get flustered; we try at all times to get together when there is something in which we all believe quite sincerely.

On this occasion, I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) for initiating this debate. I agree, of course, with what he says, but if had told us last night that he expected to rise just after five o'clock today to open this debate, I am sure that many of my colleagues would have prepared even greater speeches than those they have delivered. But already sufficient has been said to get the Welsh Department going full speed ahead for a long time, and perhaps the little additions that I propose to make will give them extra work still.

First of all, may I join with other hon. Members in imploring the Minister not to cut down anything to do with schools for handicapped children. A plea has already been made on behalf of spastic children, and when the Minister comes to the pleasant parts of mid-Wales round Llandrindod Wells in the summer time, I hope she will see the fine residential school for the deaf which has been provided by the Joint Education Committee for Wales. If that sort of thing can be done for deaf children, a similar project for spastic children would be a very good thing.

I am a member of a local education authority, and I must say that, if we were to take a lead from the majority of Welsh educational authorities, not a great deal would be cut in the education estimates for this year. I am very glad to find that there is to be an increase in the Estimate over last year, as announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon. Therefore, in my opinion, although I know that the costs have gone up, there ought to be some indication given by the Minister this evening that any great project that is planned for the 1952–53 financial year will not be cut at all.

I know that Circular 245 and other instructions have been sent out, and that, as a result, in my own county of Brecon, a scheme to which some of us have looked forward for a very long time is to be slowed down and is not to be started in the next financial year at all. It is a grammar school for boys at Penlan in Brecon. Even the most ardent education- ists in my county realise the present difficulties, but we all regret that this school has had to be put back.

I am also concerned with the other county which I represent—Radnorshire. I know that they got really frightened on education by Circular 242, and reduced their estimates by a 2½d. rate. I hope the Minister will look into these estimates very carefully, and see that the proper provision of education in that county is not touched at all. Cutting down an expenditure on school playgrounds is not real saving.

I have in Radnor the only authority in Wales which does not make the clothing grant for children attending at a primary or secondary schools. Surely this is bound to have a bad result on the children going to the schools. I hope that the Minister, by peaceful persuasion, will be able to convince that authority that, if there is a need for the clothing grant, they should make provision for it in their estimates and that the Minister has power to do that, as I am sure she will.

In Circular 245, there is some indication that, in regard to some minor projects, the capital expenditure shall not exceed a certain sum. I hope that some of these minor projects will not be cut down a great deal, when it comes to maintenance, repair and improvement of village schools which are not to be closed. Again, it is vital for the success of the schools meals service that consideration should be given to good sanitary arrangements and reliable water supplies.

I listened in Brecon the other day to the General Secretary of the National Union of Teachers giving an address on education, and he made a very strong point of the increased cost of stationery and equipment. It is vitally important, although the average man in the street does not realise it, to recognise how much these costs have gone up, and, again, I hope the Minister will look into the matter and see that sufficient material is available in that direction for all our schools.

Some people on my own local authority seem to have been bitten by the economy bug, and they seem to think that they can make a cut in the supply of plimsolls for children in primary schools who go in for physical training. I hope the Minister will examine such estimates when they come before her.

I would also join in the plea that has been made that greater consideration should be given to the subject of technical education because of the years of depression caused by only one type of industry in South Wales. We have been concerned only with the mining type of education, but now, with a diversity of industry, we require the provision of a great deal of technical education, and I hope the Minister will see that everything possible shall be done to encourage these schemes of development in technical education.

I was very glad to find that the Minister, in reply to Questions on two occasions recently, said that she was not in favour of closing village schools. During the period of office of the last Government, I was lucky enough to secure the Adjournment debate, although, rather different from the situation tonight, I had only half an hour in which to put my case. Nevertheless, I was satisfied with the result of that debate and a review was made of the question of closing village schools under the development plans.

I am sure that the Minister agrees that village schools ought not to be closed merely because some supra-educationists want to centralise everything. The village school is a great institution in Wales, as, I am sure, in other countries, too. I hope that the Minister, in view of her announcement to the House, will examine the proposals for the closing of village schools with a view to maintaining them wherever possible, and will not agree to their being closed merely because the education authority concerned asks that they should be closed. The views of the parents and objectors should be given due consideration. I trust that when objections are sent to the Minister, local education authorities will see that through their respective sub-committees every consideration is given to them.

As a general rule, such objections are not usually gone into in any detail. I ask the right hon. Lady to carry out the undertaking given to me on an Adjournment debate some years ago that parents and other objectors would have the opportunity to put forward their points of view. I warn the Minister that unless something is done about the matter in both Radnor and Breconshire, I shall take the first opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

I know that the reply might be—what can one do with schools which have a roll of only 12, 14 or 20 pupils? I hope the Minister will not take the figures sent in years ago in connection with these development plans, but that she will examine them in the light of such new circumstances as rural depopulation and increased productivity in agriculture. In that respect, the village school is a great asset. I conclude by repeating that I am very glad my hon. Friend has had this opportunity of raising the subject of education in Wales tonight I hope the Under-Secretary responsible for Welsh Affairs will not go to his chief and say that because we have had this debate tonight we do not want another Welsh debate in the near future.

6.44 p.m.

Rev. Llywelyn Williams (Abertillery)

I wish to refer to one matter which, so far, has not been mentioned in this debate—the very welcome appearance in the Principality during these last few years of Welsh schools. By that, I mean schools in which all the subjects are taught through the medium of the Welsh language. This is something completely new in the history of the Principality and is an innovation which I hope hon. Members on both sides of the House will warmly approve.

In many instances, these Welsh schools have been brought into being because of the desire of parents in many areas, who have, unfortunately, become Anglicised, that their children should become conversant with the Welsh language, with its intrinsic beauty and its richness. It is well known to all of us who have the future of Welsh education close at heart that in many instances these schools have become possible owing to the sacrifice made by the parents. In Swansea there is only one such school for a population of about 180,000. This means that extra travelling is incurred.

There is, of course, the problem of buildings. In many townships in Wales, chapel vestries are being used for this purpose. I appeal to the Minister to give every support possible to this wonderful feature in our Welsh educational life. I know that in the last analysis the preservation and continuation of the Welsh language is a matter for the hearth, but the parents can be helped considerably by the education authorities in the setting up of these schools. I regard these Welsh schools as oases in an and desert.

6.47 p.m.

The Minister of Education (Miss Florence Horsbrugh)

All those who have taken part in this debate tonight have congratulated the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) on having got his debate so early on Budget day. They thought, perhaps, as I did, that hon. Members might continue to speak about the Budget. It would appear that they were so stunned by the glorious news that they felt it better to adjourn further discussion on the subject for today. This gave the House the opportunity to turn to education in Wales much earlier than was expected.

I would say at once that if there are any details about particular schools which I cannot give hon. Members at short notice tonight, I will make a point of letting them have them later. I was very anxious to have the opportunity of replying to this debate myself, because since I went to the Ministry I have made it a particular interest to look into the working of the Ministry of Education in Wales in order to get as much information as possible about the subject. I am not altogether a stranger to that part of the country, for when I was with the Ministry of Health during the war I went there several times. I shall always remember the kindness of the people of Wales to the evacuees who went into their homes.

As hon. Members know, I received a deputation and discussed with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Home Affairs how we could make better arrangements for education in Wales. A statement was made at that time, but I have since carried the matter rather further. We have decided, as a matter of policy, that as much as possible of the work of the Welsh Department is to be transacted in Cardiff. We are going to retain the existing structure which provides for units of the Welsh Department in both London and Cardiff, but the Cardiff office will be responsible for day to day decisions. Consultations will normally take place at that office unless, as sometimes happens, people prefer to travel to London. The Cardiff office is to be given the necessary staff to undertake this work.

Mr. G. Thomas

Does the right hon. Lady's announcement mean that the permanent Secretary will now be stationed at Cardiff?

Miss Horsbrugh

If the hon. Gentleman will wait a moment I will try to give him a picture of the whole thing. The Department will continue to be the responsibility of the permanent Secretary for Wales who will retain his London office as his headquarters.

The Assistant Secretary will also remain in London and will have the part-time assistance of a Principal. All other staffs will be stationed at Cardiff and will refer to London as and when necessary. The Cardiff office is to be called the Welsh Office of the Ministry of Education. It will be the headquarters of the Welsh inspectorate and of the Welsh priority officer. The Chief Inspector of Schools for Wales will be designated the Welsh Officer. I cannot promise that we can make the transfer before some date in May or June.

As for the Permanent Secretary, I think that the best plan is for him to have headquarters in London and to be travelling to and from Cardiff; otherwise, the Minister who, after all, is the Minister of Education for England and Wales, would not be able to keep in touch, as he or she should, and the Permanent Secretary would not be able to keep in touch with general policy and special arrangements. I think the arrangements we have made should bring some satisfaction and that when hon. Members have seen it working they will regard it as an improvement.

The first of the main points brought up in this debate was the question of what economies will take place as a result of the issue of Circular 242. As hon. Members have heard before, and were reminded again by the Chancellor of the Exchequer today, that we are spending more on education this year than we have ever spent in the history of this country. We shall be spending at least £6 million more than we spent last year in England and Wales.

The strange thing is, whether we speak English or learn to speak Welsh, that in neither language is an increase in the amount of money proposed to be spent translated by the word "cut." I sometimes ask myself whether if, in years to come, a Government find it necessary to spend less on education, that will be called an "increase."

We are to spend more than ever before. Do not let us forget that; we can be proud of it. I am as interested in education and in the great advantages of education as any hon. Member who has spoken in this debate. I think we can take a certain pride that in these times of desperate difficulty—and having heard the Chancellor today we should all realise that they are desperate—we in this country have taken the step, of which the whole world is aware, of placing a greater sum of money than ever before at the service of education.

It would be far better if we looked at the present position from that point of view. I agree that costs have gone up and that there are more children in schools. But we should not talk of cuts. Rather should we see what is the best value we can obtain from this extra money.

Hon. Members will agree that we have to look at primary, technical and secondary education and find out what is required. Having established that first priority, one has to go further and find out how much money can be spent on those requirements within the general arrangement.

Circular 242 asked local authorities to look again at the forecasts they had sent in last autumn. Those are fore-cases of the estimates they will be sending in next April. I think it is extremely difficult to put down estimates. One wants to be sure, especially if they are for a certain time ahead, that one is putting down enough. The forecasts we received in the autumn worked out at over £20 million more than we spent last year.

Since then some local authorities have said to me, "There is no need for you to send this circular. We always look at the estimates again and the cuts we are now making we would have made anyhow." I think there is a good deal in that and that when some local authorities look at the estimates and compare them with the forecasts, they do find that certain of their figures are too high.

The notice referring to 5 per cent. related to a target to be aimed at, and it was made perfectly clear that estimates were not to damage the essential fabric of education. I am as convinced today as when I signed that circular that if I had not sent it a great many local authorities might not have looked at some of the details, and that some of the expenditure we want devoted to priority needs and want to be used so carefully might have been spent in ways which—

Mr. W. G. Cove (Aberavon)

On a point of order. Could the Minister tell us how the Welsh authorities have responded to Circular 242?

Miss Horsbrugh

Is that a point of order?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a point of order.

Miss Horsbrugh

I am trying to reply to those hon. Members who have asked me questions. Hon. Members brought up various point about which they are very anxious. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West mentioned several points.

When I receive the estimates in April, I will see what changes the local authorities have made. In some cases I have been asked for advice on nursery schools, divisional executives and several other matters, and those local authorities who have asked for it have received my advice. On the subject of nursery schools, divisional executives and other things, we have said that we are not in favour of indiscriminate cutting down from the point of view of finance, but that each service should be examined to see if it was useful and necessary and what it cost.

Mr. G. Thomas

Is it not a fact, however, that the Minister has sent definite instructions and a circular to each authority concerning its building projects? She has not made any reference to that up to now. I presume that she is making a general statement.

Miss Horsbrugh

Perhaps I was going too slowly. I was anxious to give information in reply to questions asked about Circular 242. I have said that I am waiting to see the estimates when they come in April and I have said that we are not asking for indiscriminate cutting.

I said in that circular that there would be a further circular on the building programme, because until we found out the amount of supplies and the exact state of the programmes of the authorities for 1951–52, it was not possible to make out a programme for the whole country. We had to wait to see what labour would be available, the amount of money we could spend and the exact state of the building programmes of the local authorities. We then issued Circular 245.

I have here a long list of various authorities. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West, mentioned certain authorities which, he said, had not been given a single projected new building. But they had none in their previous programme. I would prefer not to go into the details in relation to each authority by name, but I know that the hon. Member has no complaint to make in his own constituency.

We said in that circular—my predecessor worked out the plan—that we had to arrange to build in the areas where there was an increase in the school population and where there were also new housing estates where children would be coming to live and would be needing schools.

Mr. P. Morris

Will the right hon. Lady say whether she has considered the plight of a school completely destroyed by enemy action? Would that be a case for priority?

Miss Horsbrugh

What we had to see was that in each district there were school places for the school children who were there. They might have come into a new housing estate which had no school. That had to be a priority. There may have been an increase in the number of children in the area, due to the increased birthrate; so that there were more children to get into the school, in exactly the same way as if a school had been bombed and did not exist any more. There was a school population without a school.

But there are other things I should like to do. I should like to build schools to replace some of the old, bad schools, but my predecessor went ahead with the plan that I am on at this moment. Some years ago the previous Government quite clearly decided—probably when they decided to put up the school-leaving age—that the building would have to be concentrated on providing the extra school places. It was laid down in the plan, on which I am now working, that local authorities could not build simply for overcrowded or black-listed schools, but they must concentrate on the extra school places.

I do not think we can possibly turn back on that. If we allowed the building of better schools or extra schools to replace the bad schools, either we would not have school places for the children coming into school, or we would have to change the school-leaving age. If we are to have children in that number we must build for them and we shall have to wait until the large population has been through the school before we say "We will replace the black-listed schools and make all these improvements."

I believe that those are facts, and it is on that plan that I have tried to proceed. It is quite clear that a good deal of the building programme of 1951–52 was not completed. What happened—and I am sure hon. Members must know this from their own constituencies—was that the building programme became completely overloaded. We were trying to do more than we could and we were getting delays. It is no good having too many schools started and not completed, because children cannot be taken into those. I could quote examples from all over the country where the programme had to be scaled down because of the difficulties. Last year I was told of programmes where the steel did not come along and where there was not enough labour.

The change in the programme in Wales as a whole—for the Principality—is very small indeed. If the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, wants to look at the figures as a whole, I will give them to him.

Mr. G. Thomas

I tried the other day to elucidate the facts, but the Minister was even more elusive on that question than on most.

Miss Horsbrugh

I am sorry if I was elusive. The week before I was told I was filibustering. Now I try to be quick and I am told that I am elusive. With practice I shall, perhaps, improve.

Mr. Thomas

Keep right on to the end of the road.

Miss Horsbrugh

I think Wales has done well. Some projects are being held back slightly, but it will not mean as much as another year. It will be a few months. Wales as a whole is doing very well with its programme.

I know the interest which the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, has taken in these spastic children, and this school at Glamorgan. I have gone into the matter very carefully. At the moment we have only reached the point at which Glamorgan are considering entering on negotiations for a site. It is obvious that they will not be ready to start work on the school. It will be an entirely new building and the planning of it will take some time. None of us has had experience of this project, and it is the first one in Wales. It is physically impossible for these plans to be ready and the site prepared in this year—1952–53—but we hope to get it into next year's programme—1953–54.

Mr. Thomas

The authority is disappointed that the Ministry has said it will not be included in this year's programme.

Miss Horsbrugh

We should have liked to be able to include it in this year's programme, but it is not possible. Negotiations have not yet taken place for the site and all the arrangements for the planning of this new building have to be made. If the hon. Member for Cardiff, West, looks into the matter, he will see that it will take some time before we can begin the building work; but I want to make it clear that there will not be a delay. I know the work he has done and we want to see them getting down to this building, but the plan is not ready and there will have to be negotiations for the site.

Technical school plans are, I believe, going ahead as quickly as possible. I do not think there has been any considerable delay. During this year we expect starts to be made with the new technical colleges at Ammanford and Llandaff, and the technical institute at Pybwyrlwd and accommodation for day release classes at Aberystwyth.

Mr. G. Roberts

Could the Minister tell us anything about the reference made by the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. T. W. Jones) to technical education in North Wales? She has got as far north as Aberystwyth and perhaps we could, entice her a little nearer to Caernarvon.

Miss Horsbrugh

If the hon. Gentleman will give me a little extra time to travel north, I will do it. I have no information, but I will try to get it and let him have it.

The other problem was the subject of awards. I have heard of the difficulty in cases where the awards differed in amount and standard, where people living in one area thought they were not getting as fair a share as those in other areas. We have considered this and have sent to the local authorities to tell them to wait before arranging their awards, and we are going to give them certain infomation to enable them to discuss it. At present discussions are going on with local authorities and universities to come to a conclusion on the maintenance standard. That will be the maintenance standard for our State scholarships.

If we can get the local representatives working on that, we can tell the local authorities what standard we are setting for the State scholarship. We are having a table made of the different numbers of awards and amounts of awards in all authorities, in relation to the population who might have the chance of getting those awards. That is almost a visual aid in deciding the amount of awards and the standard. Having given them that information, we are going to ask them to discuss the matter with us, because I do agree that people should think they are getting the same chance whether they are in one part of the country or another.

I know that transport is a difficulty in certain areas. Again, I have to await the estimates which will be received in April. I have said—and I still stand by it—that I have asked local authorities to look at the various things on which perhaps too much is being spent. But it is for them to look at the amount they are spending and to justify it, and I will certainly look at the position when I receive the estimates.

The hon. Member for Cardiff, West, urged me to use my authority. I wonder whether he would like me to use my authority when he agrees with me but not when he disagrees with me. The other day, at Question time, I was asked to use my authority. A local authority wanted to shut down nursery schools. I was asked, "Will you do something about it?" I said, "Yes," and I told them they could not make indiscriminate cuts. Apparently that was excellent; I was using my authority, and I believe hon. Members thought I was right in using it. I am, therefore, looking for their support after April when I have to use my authority to do what I think is right in asking local authorities to look at the figures they have sent in. I have to say that either they are spending too much or too little.

I have heard what was said about books, and I will look into the matter, and I will also look into the question of clothing. One hon. Member spoke about a school for deaf children. In one case, at any rate, we are getting an addition to the programme with a school particularly for children suffering from deafness. I think I have answered nearly all the points raised and I turn now to the last, that of the Welsh language.

Mr. Bowen

May I ask the hon. Lady, before she deals with this point, whether she has any information to give us about the proposed residential schools in Carmarthen, Cardigan and Merioneth for sub-normal children?

Miss Horsbrugh

No. I will look into that and I will tell the hon. Gentleman about it. I had a list of other schools about which I thought I might be asked, but I do not think that was included. I will find out and will let the hon. Gentleman know

I think hon. Members know that no Minister of Education for England and Wales would do other than try to help forward the teaching of the Welsh language. The difficulties of schools in which the whole of the teaching is in the Welsh language have been pointed out. I should need some good arguments to convert me to believe that it was right to—

Mr. G. Roberts

Between 1945 and 1950 I pressed this matter rather hard with the then Minister of Education, the right hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Tomlinson), and from being a voluntary matter, pressed by youth movements, particularly the Welsh League of Youth, it became an official part of the Minister's educational policy in Wales. If the Minister intends to question the value of these schools, she will be questioning a part of the educational policy in Wales which has become established and official. I thought I ought to intervene before she went too far on this point.

Mr. T. W. Jones

I invite the Minister as soon as possible to visit one of these schools. She has carried us all with her up to the moment and it is a pity, when we are on the point of adjourning, that she should drop our support so suddenly. May I have her promise this evening that in the very near future, during the Parliamentary Recess if possible, she will visit one of these schools? She will find it extremely interesting.

Rev. LI. Williams

As the hon. Member who first referred to these Welsh schools, may I say that I think the Minister will find that the record of the first Welsh school established in Wales, at Llanelly, is very good? In competition with other schools, in which instruction is given in the English language, for entrance into the grammar schools, the Welsh school has the finest record during the last few years.

Miss Horsbrugh

I know that. I am only putting in a plea, at the end of the debate, that the children should also be able to learn English, as a foreign language if hon. Members like to put it that way. I want to make it clear that I know about these schools and—

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Miss Horsbrugh

I must push on. I know the necessity for more text-books in Welsh. I am not in the least opposed to this.

Perhaps it was a pity that at the end of the debate, closing on rather a lighter note, I should have disturbed hon. Members. I was about to say that I hope the people of Wales might also be allowed to learn the English language. [HON. MEMBERS: "They do!"] I have been serious the whole time, but just at the end I was introducing a lighter note. Plans have already been made for me to visit Wales. If I, as a Scot, can visit the people of Wales, we might make each other understand by speaking English.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Seventeen Minutes past Seven o'Clock.