HC Deb 26 June 1952 vol 502 cc2423-30
30. Mr. Driberg

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement on the situation in the Bamangwato tribe, following the resignation of Keaboka Kgamane from his position as senior tribal representative.

Mr. J. Foster

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement that I made on 10th June.

On 5th June the Resident Commissioner addressed a message to the tribe. He contemplates calling a conference of men of standing and integrity in the tribe to discuss the next steps. The Resident Commissioner has also announced that the Administration would welcome the formation of a representative council to assist the District Commissioner until a new chief has been appointed.

Meantime, the Reserve is quiet, law and order having been effectively restored.

Mr. Driberg

From what the hon. and learned Gentleman says, can we take it that no ill effect has followed the return of the delegation from London?

Mr. Foster

I do not know what the hon. Member means by that. There was an ill effect of three policemen being killed.

Mr. Driberg

I am afraid the hon. and learned Gentleman did not understand. Could he say that no ill effect has been a consequence of the delegation to the United Kingdom and the return of those delegates from London?

Mr. Foster

As I say, there was the ill effect of three policemen being killed.

32. Mr. Fenner Brockway

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he has received a reply to his inquiry regarding the claim of the Bamangwato delegation that the reply of the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations was read in full to the kgotla held in Serowe on 21st May.

Mr. J. Foster

The tribesmen constituting the deputation were informed before they left London that my noble Friend expected them to convey in a proper fashion to the tribe the terms of his reply to their representations. On their arrival in the Protectorate they were further informed that a representative kgotla had been called for 23rd May for this purpose.

I understand that despite these arrangements members of the deputation went straight to the kgotla ground on their arrival at Serowe and there read out the Secretary of State's reply. Only those persons who had gone to meet them were present, to the number of about 1,000. It was not a representative or properly convened kgotla and the deputation's action did not comply with or in any way fulfil the obligation which rested on its members.

Mr. Brockway

While appreciating the fact that it is now acknowledged that the delegation did read the reply from the Minister, may I ask whether it is not the case that the tribe objected to an infringement of the custom that a kgotla should be called by the tribe and not by the officials of the Government, and that in fact the attendance of 1,000 to whom the Minister's reply was read in full on 21st May was a larger attendance than came to the kgotla on the 23rd?

Mr. Foster

Yes, but the hon. Gentleman is probably aware that the kgotla on the 26th May was called at the request of the deputation in that they had asked for it to be postponed until then.

33. Mr. Fenner Brockway

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if, in view of the report on prison and transport conditions, a copy of which has been sent him, he will ensure that the members of the Bamangwato tribe, Bechuanaland, arrested on 26th May are confined and transported under humane conditions.

Mr. J. Foster

My noble Friend is satisfied that proper and humane treatment is being given those who were arrested on 26th May. The hon. Member will appreciate that until suitable accommodation could be provided for the unusually large numbers involved, temporary arrangements had to be made.

Mr. Brockway

While I appreciate that, may I ask if it is not a fact that, according to the report of the solicitor of the accused, 78 persons were gaoled in a motor shed 30 feet square; that women prisoners were conducted by male police into the veldt when they had to relieve nature; that two leaders of the delegation and 19 others were removed 200 miles at midnight in open motor trucks clad only in the clothes in which they were arrested; that prisoners were beaten up in the presence of European police; and that they had no food from Saturday at 6 p.m. until 12.45 on the following day; and whether he will take steps to prevent a recurrence of these incidents?

Mr. Foster

To answer all those points I shall have to take a long time, I am afraid. They are not true. First, with regard to the point which the hon. Member raised about the police beating up the prisoners, there is no truth in that report. After the three policemen were killed the injured prisoners admitted to hospital, who consisted of two at Serowe and two at Palapye, had injuries which were caused before their arrest—they had already been injured at the time of arrest and had presumably incurred their injuries in the earlier riots.

All persons arrested were offered medical examination. Some women complained that they had been bruised by the police, and one man stated that his ribs had been bruised. Apart from the hospital cases to which I have referred, the medical officer found a few bruises but no serious injury. Other prisoners took advantage of the examination to get treatment of complaints of long standing unconnected with the disturbances.

The reply to the hon. Member's Question about the gaoling of 78 persons in a motor shed is that in the emergency the authorities had to make use of whatever accommodation was available. If the rioters experienced any discomfort they were in a sense themselves to blame. The garage was open on one side but that was completely closed in by banked 44-gallon drums. It has been put to similar use on previous occasions. On 3rd June, after the despatch of 23 men to Gaberones, 15 remained in the garage. The number increased to 43 on 4th June and to 79 on the 5th June.

On 6th June when some of the men were about to be removed, the solicitor mentioned by the hon. Member asked that the prisoners should remain at Serowe for an extra day. This was agreed to and the numbers were not reduced until 36 were sent to Gaberones on Monday, 9th June. Forty-three remained in the garage until the 14th, when they were moved to a new prison camp where they were joined on the 15th by all those in custody in Gaberones.

In regard to the hon. Member's question about their removal in open trucks clad in the clothes in which they were arrested, the reply is that lorries were used for the transporting of prisoners between Serowe and Gaberones. Some had roofs and some had not. This is the normal means of transport by those Bechuana who can afford it. It is that used when tribesmen are brought to Serowe for kgotlas. It is correct that the prisoners wore the same clothes as when arrested. Additional clothing is not provided for prisoners under trial. The minimum temperatures at Serowe from 3rd to 14th June averaged 44.67 degrees.

With regard to——

Hon. Members

Oh.

Mr. Speaker

The supplementary question was a very long one and required a long reply to answer it properly. Two reflections which cross my mind is that supplementary questions requiring such long answers should not be asked; and that if a long statement is necessary, it should be circulated.

Mr. Brockway

On a point of order. I did supply the Under-Secretary with these facts in detail. I asked him a question on the report with which I supplied him, and it was only because in his answer he did not meet the points in that report that it was necessary for me to put my supplementary question.

Mr. Foster

Further to that point of order. It would, I think, be unfortunate if the idea got abroad in the country that there was any truth whatever in these allegations. I have only one more point to answer, and I should like your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, to do so.

With regard to the hon. Gentleman's question about the conducting of the women by male escorts when they had to relieve nature, I would explain that there is only one female wardress employed at Serowe. When it is necessary to take women prisoners into the open, as for example for identification parades, or other purposes, the wardress is accompanied by a police guard. She is so accompanied when she takes them into the open for purposes of nature. On these occasions the male escort remains within calling distance but out of sight of the place used by the women. In Serowe, which covers a large area, there are no public conveniences except in some of their tribal institutions.

Mr. Bellenger

Would not it be fair to hon. Members, who also have in mind important Questions which they wish to ask, that important statements like this to be made by the Minister should be made at the end of Questions?

Mr. Speaker

On the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman will see that it is difficult for the Minister, when a number of allegations are made, to allow them to go uncontradicted.

Mr. Brockway

May I say I do not——

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I think we ought to pass on.

34. Mr. Brockway

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many persons have been arrested in connection with the recent disturbances among the Bamangwato tribe in Bechuanaland; how many of the members of the recent delegation to London are included among them; and who are the members of the Bamangwato tribe with whom negotiations have been opened for the appointment of a new chief.

Mr. J. Foster

One hundred and sixty-seven persons were arrested of whom two persons were later released. Those arrested included Keaboka and Peto Sekgoma who were members of the recent deputation.

The Administration have not yet begun to discuss with the tribe the appointment of a new chief. But in a message addressed to the whole tribe, which has been widely distributed throughout the Reserve, the Resident Commissioner has stated that well known men of standing and integrity will be called to a conference to discuss the best means of carrying out the policy embodied in the recent Order in Council.

Mr. Brockway

May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether one of the arrested members of the deputation was the senior tribal representative, and should there not be a representative to keep contact between the tribe and the Government officials?

Mr. Foster

Until the conference takes place the District Commissioner will have to administer the tribe.

35. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what further steps have been taken to consult and inform the Bamangwato people in respect of the chieftainship and of any progress towards administrative and governmental revision.

Mr. J. Foster

In accordance with the message of the Resident Commissioner to the Bamangwato tribe on 5th June, well known men of standing and integrity will be called to a conference to discuss the best means of carrying out the policy embodied in the recent Order in Council which was designed to put an end to the present emergency and to ensure that the Bamangwato tribe should be restored to unity under a new chief.

Mr. Sorensen

Can the hon. and learned Gentleman be a little more specific in his reply to the latter part of my Question regarding any progress towards administrative and governmental revision. particularly in view of the fact that this was at one time promised? I should like to know whether anything has been done.

Mr. Foster

Since the riots we have to await the conference. The Reserve is a big one and the message has to go out. The court proceedings must, I think, at least begin before that can be done.

Mr. Sorensen

Could the hon. and learned Gentleman say approximately when a further meeting will be called for the purpose mentioned in the last part of my Question?

Mr. Foster

We must leave that to the local administration.

37. Mr. Hector Hughes

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether the charges against the 165 members of the Baman-gwato tribe, now in custody and awaiting trial, have now been formulated and published; what are those charges; what provision has been made for the defence of the accused persons by qualified lawyers; and when, and where, the actual trials will take place.

Mr. J. Foster

A preparatory examination is at present being conducted into the charges against these persons. This is the normal procedure in the Protectorate in cases involving serious charges.

Those taken into custody at Serowe are at present charged with sedition and for in the alternative public violence; those at Palapye with public violence and/or in the alternative obstructing the police in the performance of their duty. The result of the preparatory examination will determine the offences with which they are finally charged and the courts in which they are to be tried.

I am obtaining from the High Commissioner information about the arrangements for the defence of the accused persons and will communicate it to the hon. Member.

Mr. Hughes

May I take it that these men will not be brought to trial without having proper legal advice? Is the Minister aware that the Government handling of the causes which led to these arrests are contrary to the best interests of the tribe and the British Commonwealth, and of the relations of coloured people with the British people; and will he take steps, other than by petty police court proceedings, to remove the causes which led to this disturbance?

Mr. Foster

I am not aware of those facts. In fact, I think the opposite is the case. I am finding about the events.

Mr. Gordon Walker

Can the hon. and learned Gentleman give any idea when the trial is likely to take place?

Mr. Foster

I have to find that out.

Mr. Baldwin

In formulating any charges against these 165 members of the Bamangwato tribe, will the Minister consider formulating similar charges against that tribe in this country who are always stirring up trouble in the minds of primitive people, which eventually leads to death?