HC Deb 18 June 1952 vol 502 cc1327-40
Mr. Speaker

The next Amendment is to page 9, line 46, and is in the name of the right hon. Gentleman for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell). I would remind the House that there was a long discussion on this matter in Committee, but I have selected this Amendment because some indication is given of further examination of the problem.

Mr. Pannell

I beg to move, in page 9, line 46, at the end, to insert: (3) Any amount specified in the prescribed list in relation to a garment as hereinafter defined (not being an outsize garment or a special garment as hereinafter defined) made up at the request of the purchaser to measurements given by him to the seller and which has been cut singly by a special order cutter shall be deemed to be increased by fifteen per cent. of that amount. (4) Any amount specified in the prescribed list in relation to an outsize garment or in relation to a special garment shall be deemed to be increased by fifteen per cent, of that amount if not so made up and by thirty per cent. of that amount if so made up. (5) in this section— garment" means overcoat, suit, jacket, waistcoat, trousers, breeches or pantaloons, being in each case of men's or boys' wear; outsize garment" means a garment being an overcoat to fit a person having a chest measurement (measured over the waistcoat) exceeding forty-two inches, a suit, jacket or waistcoat to fit a person having a chest measurement (measured over the waistcoat) exceeding forty-two inches, or a waist measurement (measured over the trousers) exceeding forty inches, and trousers, breeches or pantaloons to fit a person having a waist measurement (measured over the trousers) exceeding forty inches; special garment" means a garment (not being an outsize garment) appropriate to a man not less than six feet three inches in height, such garment being an overcoat exceeding forty-eight inches in length, a jacket exceeding thirty-three inches in length and with a sleeve measurement exceeding thirty-four inches, trousers with an inside leg measurement exceeding thirty-four inches, or a suit comprising such a jacket and trousers. I shall respect your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but you will appreciate that this is an outsize Amendment, an Amendment concerned with outsizes—those who are too big for ordinary measurement above the standard size—and with the allowances previously made under the old Utility scheme. The House will see that the Amendment seeks to provide a 15 per cent. plus above ready made where there is bespoke tailoring or a 15 per cent. plus where there is a ready-made outsize garment, or to provide 30 per cent. plus for both of them.

In Committee we pressed the Financial Secretary before withdrawing the Amendment and, although the hon. Gentleman did not give a specific pledge, he said that the financial considerations of the proposal were negligible, that there was no difficulty in this respect, but that the difficulties were administrative and outside the Government service. Although he would not give an assurance, we thought that at the time a feasible scheme was being worked out. We pressed the hon. Gentleman to give a pledge and, as he was not able to do so, we said we would raise the question on the Report stage.

I am not going through the whole list of considerations, but I want to point out that earlier this evening the Govern- ment found itself able to give way and make a valuable concession in the matter of a petrol allowance for invalid chairs. That was for people deformed or crippled in industry, but this Amendment not only relates to normal outsizes but those who have to be specially tailored because they are deformed or crippled. Ready-made garments do not fit everybody. I think it was Emerson who said: Our bodies do not fit us but caricature and satirize us. Man is … borrowed equally from good and bad ancestors. I do not know whether that is a good quotation.

Bacon was not so kind about tall men. He said that he never knew anybody put diamonds in a garret or a top storey, so tall men had little in their heads. I think that was rather unkind, I have too much respect for the hon. Member who associated himself very weightily with this plea on the previous occasion. The hon. Members for Gillingham (Mr. Burden), for Epsom (Mr. McCorquodale) and Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. W. Fletcher) approached this subject in Committee very drearily, as if fatness or outsize was an affliction, but all the literary references I have been able to find seem to suggest that fat people are a fairly cheerful lot.

The "Evening News" even "went to town" with a full-length leading article, because I had referred to the trade term of "excessive figuration." I did not coin the phrase; it is a trade term. So, for the benefit of the "Evening News" or those people who believe in pure English I refer to the fat, the corpulent, the plump, the plummy, the massive, the long and large and big. One is reminded of Shakespeare's line: Sweep on, you fat and greasy citizens. I do not know whether these are all appropriate quotations, but Shakespeare has referred to his preference to fat men.

I prefer Walt Whitman, who said: I find no sweeter fat than sticks to my bones. I am arguing for the male sex. If I were arguing in relation to female outsizers, which would be out of order, I would quote Wodehouse: The girl had as many curves as a scenic railway. The Amendment is well understood by the Government. It is a matter which has commanded the sympathy of the whole House, and I hope that the Finance Secretary will be able to announce tonight that he has made some progress with his scheme.

Miss Alice Bacon (Leeds, North-East)

I shall not attempt to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell) in his literary quotations, nor will I repeat the arguments which we advanced during the Committee stage. The House will remember that on that occasion the Amendment was supported by Members on both sides of the Committee. It will also be remembered that in connection with women's garments we had down other Amendments designed to raise the D level according to the size of the garments.

We did not divide on this issue during the Committee stage because we thought that the hon. Gentleman was sympathetic, and that something would be done between the Committee stage and Report stage. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman said: We have, as I readily concede, a real problem which, if it can be relieved without undue complication and an undue burden upon the wholesalers and manufacturers, we should like to relieve. He went on to say: my right hon. Friend is prepared to enter into discussions with the wholesalers and with the manufacturers with a view to seeing whether a satisfactory solution can now be worked out."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 12th May, 1952; Vol. 500, c. 891–2.] The fact that no Amendment has been put down by the right hon. Gentleman indicates, I presume, that as a result of those conversations it has been found impossible to do anything about this matter. I should like to ask the Financial Secretary what trade interests he has consulted because I have in my constituency many clothing manufacturers—both big and small firms—and the representations which I have had from all of them have been that I should endeavour to persuade the Government to do something not only for outsizes but also about the bespoke tailoring.

It would be interesting to know what trade interests have been consulted on this matter. The hon. Gentleman, when replying during the Committee stage, said that he did not think it would be impossible to evolve a scheme in which it was the measurement of the garment and not of the prospective and future wearer which was the main consideration. The Amend- ments which we had on the Order Paper in regard to women's clothing were framed not in relation to the size of the garment but to the size of the wearer. If the hon. Gentleman thought that that was an objection, it would have been easy for him to have put Amendments on the Order Paper to meet that point.

I hope that we are to be given reasons why this Amendment has not been accepted and why there is to be no provision for outsizes and for bespoke tailoring. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has sent letters to some of us giving his reasons why he could not accept our Amendments on the Committee stage. I have not seen any letter recently about this matter but it may be that the Chancellor has good reasons.

Perhaps those reasons are as good as those he gave me in a letter which he sent to me about the size of women's coats, in which he advises women who object to paying the tax on three-quarter coats to go into the children's department, buy a child's coat, and that an ordinary sized woman can wear that child's coat as a three-quarter coat for herself. That, of course, is entirely ludicrous and it may be that the reasons to be stated tonight are as foolish as the reasons given in that letter.

I hope that the Government will think again on this matter and that we shall not have out-size people, and those people who, because of some peculiarity of figure, need bespoke tailoring, penalised twice, both in the cost of the garment and the extra tax they are called upon to pay.

10.0 p.m.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I understand, both from the speeches to which we have listened and from the indication from the Chair, that the real purpose of moving this Amendment—on the subject of which, as hon. Members will recall, we had a prolonged discussion in Committee—is to elicit from the Government what steps have been taken as a result of the undertaking which it fell to me to give during that debate. I did point out in that debate, as has been said by the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Pannell), that it was not the cost to the Exchequer but the fact that administrative perplexities were involved; and that the dealing with those perplexities would, under the scheme, inevitably in a large degree fall upon the trades concerned.

In view of the merits of the matter, and because of the clear indication of opinion given by hon. Members, I undertook to go further into the matter and to consult with the trades concerned. In reply to a question from the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, North-East (Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas), I made it clear that I thought it improbable that I should be able to give a complete answer by the Report stage. The reason I gave that indication was that this was not merely the normal consideration of a matter inside a Government Department, but that it involved consultations with a large number of outside interests.

I can, however, report the steps which we have taken. As the result of the undertaking I gave, we got in touch with all the leading trade associations on the matter. We gave them a little notice, and a meeting took place on 27th May, when rather varying views were put forward. The conclusions of most of the trade representatives concerned were rather tentative, both on the question of practicability and, practicability being assumed, on the method of implementation. I do not wish to give a false impression in either direction. We were certainly not left with the impression that a solution was impossible, nor that it was easy. The general impression which we were given was somewhere between the two.

As a result of that meeting and the considerable efforts made, I should like to say, by the trade associations concerned to be helpful, and because of their widely varying and different proposals, we asked them to let us have their views on the matter subsequently in writing. They were good enough to say they would do so, and in a number but not all of the cases their views in writing have now reached us. Some of them are still outstanding.

Quite clearly the matter is still far from being free from complication. It is clear also that further study with the trade is required before definite conclusions can be arrived at or announced to the House. The position, therefore, is somewhat as I anticipated it would be; that is to say, that our pursuit of a solution would meet with neither easy success nor easy failure, but that it would inevitably take a longer time than the interval between the Committee stage and the Report stage of this Bill.

The only comment I need add is that I do not withdraw to any extent at all the general expression of desire to help which I expressed during the Committee stage. We remain of the view that if we can deal with this matter without imposing a hopeless overload on the administration of the scheme, we should like to do so. I can give the assurance that we shall continue this discussion with the firm intention of achieving a reasonable solution, if possible.

Mr. John Edwards (Brighouse and Spenborough)

While we are very glad to have the assurance of the Financial Secretary that the matter is to be further considered, I do not think that we can feel that his reply, taken as a whole, is satisfactory.

The burden of our complaint was, and must remain, that the Government seem to have blundered into this position without the slightest knowledge of the matter at all. If anything like reasonable discussions had taken place in the beginning, and if the Board of Trade had been properly involved in this matter, there is no doubt that this problem would have arisen then. That is a matter on which we feel strongly. Is it not true that this problem became a matter to which the Government directed their attention only when we raised it from this side of the House? No one on the Government side was aware of it until it was raised by us. That is inexcusable.

Mr. R. A. Butler

I do not know why the hon. Gentleman should say that the Government were not aware of this problem. The Government have had to handle an immense amount of detail in this Bill. As far as I am aware, there is not a single detail which has not engaged the earnest consideration of the Government. It is most unfair that the reply of the Financial Secretary, in which he referred to the associations with whom we have deliberately been negotiating, should be treated in this spirit. I must say that I do not think that it is according to the general spirit in which we have been conducting our discussions. This is a very difficult matter to which my hon. Financial Secretary has given a great deal of attention. I do not think that in this spirit the hon. Gentleman opposite will meet with any success.

Mr. Edwards

I am not sure whether the Chancellor was listening to what I said at the beginning. I said that we were very pleased that these discussions were to continue. What the Chancellor has not explained is why, if he and his colleagues were aware of this matter before, the discussions could not have taken place earlier. The reason the Government are in no position to give any firm decision today is that the discussions took place after the Committee stage at the end of May, when they could very well have taken place earlier.

That is what we on this side are concerned about. That is why I say to the right hon. Gentleman that if he and his colleagues were aware of this matter there is no reason why the discussions should not have taken place earlier. Certainly we were left with the impression on the Committee stage that this was a

problem which we placed in front of the Government and that, because we brought it forward, the Government said that they would go into discussions with the trade associations.

If that is not so, I am sorry if I have misjudged the right hon. Gentleman; but on the facts as we know them that is the only construction that we are entitled to make. While we hope that these discussions will proceed, we must nevertheless register our protest at the fact that the matters were not properly considered at an earlier date by taking the matter to a Division.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 248.

Division No. 171.] AYES [10.9 p.m.
Adams, Richard Donnelly, D. L. Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)
Albu, A. H. Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) Johnson, James (Rugby)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)
Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell) Edwards, John (Brighouse) Jones, David (Hartlepool)
Awbery, S. S. Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)
Bacon, Miss Alice Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Jones, Jack (Rotherham)
Baird, J. Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)
Balfour, A. Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Keenan, W.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Ewart, R. Kenyon, C.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Fernyhough, E. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.
Bence, C. R. Field, W. J. King, Dr. H. M.
Benn, Wedgwood Finch, H. J. Kinley, J.
Benson, G. Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Beswick, F. Follick, M. Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)
Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Foot, M. M. Lever, Harold (Cheetham)
Bing, G. H. C. Forman, J. C. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)
Blackburn, F. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Lewis, Arthur
Blenkinsop, A. Freeman, John (Watford) Lindgren, G. S.
Blyton, W. R. Freeman, Peter (Newport) Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Boardman, H. Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. Logan, D. G.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Gibson, C. W. MacColl, J. E.
Bowden, H. W. Glanville, James McGhee, H. G.
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. McGovern, J.
Brockway, A. F. Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) McInnes, J.
Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Grey, C. F. McKay, John (Wallsend)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) McLeavy, F.
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Griffiths, William (Exchange) McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Burton, Miss F. E. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) Hall, John (Gateshead, W.) Mann, Mrs. Jean
Callaghan, L. J. Hamilton, W. W. Manuel, A. C.
Carmichael, J. Hardy, E. A. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Hargreaves, A. Mayhew, C. P.
Champion, A. J. Hayman, F. H. Mellish, R. J.
Chapman, W. D. Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Mitchison, G. R.
Chetwynd, G. R. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Monslow, W.
Clunie, J. Herbison, Miss M. Moody, A. S.
Coldrick, W. Hobson, C. R. Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.
Collick, P. H. Holman, P. Morley, R.
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Houghton, Douglas Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)
Cove, W. G. Hoy, J. H. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Hudson, James (Eating, N.) Mort, D. L.
Crossman, R. H. S. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Moyle, A.
Cullen, Mrs. A. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Mulley, F. W.
Daines, P. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Murray, J. D.
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Nally, W.
Darting, George (Hillsborough) Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J
Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.) Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Oliver, G. H.
Davies, Harold (Leek) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Orbach, M.
Deer, G. Janner, B. Oswald, T.
Delargy, H. J. Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Padley, W. E.
Dodde, N. N. Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Shurmer, P. L. E. Viant, S. P.
Pannell, Charles Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Wallace, H. W.
Pargiter, G. A. Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Watkins, T. E.
Paton, J. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Weitzman, D.
Pearson, A. Slater, J. Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Peart, T. F. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Wells, William (Walsall)
Plummer, Sir Leslie Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) West, D. G.
Popplewell, E. Snow, J. W. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John
Porter, G. Sorensen, R. W. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton) Soskice, Rt Hon. Sir Frank Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Sparks, J. A. Wigg, George
Proctor, W. T. Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Wilkins, W A.
Pursey, Cmdr. H. Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)
Rankin, John Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. Willey, Octavius (Cleveland)
Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)
Reid, William (Camlachie) Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Rhodes, H. Swingler, S. T. Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)
Richards, R. Sylvester, G. O. Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Taylor, John (West Lothian) Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) Thomas, David (Aberdare) Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, 6.)
Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Thomas, George (Cardiff) Wyatt, W. L
Rots, William Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Yates, V. F.
Royle, C. Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)
Schofield, S. (Barnsley) Thurtle, Ernest TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. Turner-Samuels, M. Mr. Hannan and
Short, E. W. Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn Mr. Kenneth Robinson
Aitken, W. T. Cranborne, Viscount Holt, A. F.
Alian, R. A. (Paddingion, S.) Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Hope, Lord John
Alport, C. J. M. Crouch, R. F. Hopkinson, Henry
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood) Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P
Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Horobin, I. M.
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Davidson, Viscountess Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) Deedes, W. F. Howard, Greville (St. Ives)
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Digby, S. Wingfield Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)
Astor, Hon. J. J. (Plymouth, Sutton) Dodds-Parker, A. D. Hurd, A. R.
Astor, Hon. W. W. (Bucks, Wycombe) Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Donner, P. W. Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)
Baldwin, A. E. Doughty, C. J. A. Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.
Banks, Col. C. Drayson, G. B. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)
Barber, A. P. L. Dugdale, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond) Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Barlow, Sir John Duncan, Capt. J. A L. Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)
Baxter, A. B. Duthie, W. S. Jones, A. (Hall Green)
Beach, Maj. Hicks Erroll, F. J Kaberry, D.
Beamish, Maj. Tufton Fell, A. Keeling, Sir Edward
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Finlay, Graeme Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge)
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Fisher, Nigel Lambert, Hon. G.
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. Lambton, Viscount
Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston) Fleteher-Cooke, C. Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Foster, John Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H
Bennett, William (Woodside) Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)
Bevins, J. R. (Toxleth) Gage, C. H. Lindsay, Martin
Birch, Nigel Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) Linstead, H. N.
Bishop, F. P. Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Llewellyn, D. T.
Black, C. W. Garner-Evans, E. H. Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Boothby, R. J. G George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.
Bottom, A. C. Glyn, Sir Ralph Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)
Bowen, E. R. Godber, J. B. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Boyd-Carpenter, J A. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.
Boyle, Sir Edward Gough, C. F. H. McAdden, S. J.
Braine, B. R. Gower, H. R. Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Graham. Sir Fergus Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Grimond, J. McKibbin, A. J.
Brooman-White, R. C. Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Browne, Jack (Govan) Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Maclean, Fitzroy
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon P. G. T. Hare, Hon. J. H. MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)
Bullard, D. G. Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Burden, F. F. A. Harris, Reader (Heston) Macpherson, Maj. Niall (Dumfries)
Butcher, H. W. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)
Carr, Robert (Mitcham) Hay, John Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.
Carson, Hon. E. Heald, Sir Lionel Markham, Major S F.
Gary, Sir Robert Heath, Edward Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)
Shannon, H. Henderson, John (Cathcart) Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S. Higgs, J. M. C Maudling, R.
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr S. L. C.
Cole, Norman Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Medlicott, Brig. F.
Sonant, Maj. R. J. E. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Mellor, Sir John
Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Hirst, Geoffrey Molson, A. H. E.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Holland-Martin, C. J. Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Hollis, M C Mott-Radclyffe, C. E
Nabarro, G. D. N Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)
Nicholls, Harmar Russell, R. S. Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N
Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. Tilney, John
Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E) Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Touche, Sir Gordon
Nield, Basil (Chester) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale) Tweedsmuir, Lady
Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P. Shepherd, William Vane, W. M. F.
Nugent, G. R. H. Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.
Oakshott, H. D Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Vosper, D. F.
Odey, G. W. Smithers, Peter (Winchester) Wade, D. W.
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Antrim, N.) Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Soames, Capt. C. Walker-Smith, D. C.
Osborne, C. Spearman, A. C. M Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Partridge, E. Speir, R. M. Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.) Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C
Peto, Brig. C. H. M. Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.) Watkinson, H. A.
Peyton, J. W. W. Stanley, Capt. Hon Richard Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)
Pickthorn, K. W. M. Stevens, G. P. Wellwood, W.
Pitman, I. J. Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. While, Baker (Canterbury)
Powell, J. Enoch Storey, S. Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)
Profumo, J. D. Summers, G. S. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Raikes, H. V. Sutcliffe, H. Wills, G.
Rayner, Brig. R. Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Redmayne, M. Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Wood, Hon. R.
Remnant, Hon. P. Teeling, W. York, C.
Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Thomas, Rt. Hon J. P. L. (Hereford)
Robson-Brown, W Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Mr. Drewe and Mr. Studholme.
Roper, Sir Harold Thompson, Lt.-Cdr R. (Croydon, W.)
Mr. R. A. Butler

I beg to move, in page 11, line 33, at the end, to insert: Provided that as respects the periods mentioned in Part III of the Fourth Schedule to this Act the prescribed lists shall be the lists contained in Parts I and II of that Schedule modified in accordance with the said Part III. This Amendment is consequential upon certain concessions which were made by Ministers in the course of earlier debates relating to certain footwear, bootees and so forth, fur garments, cloth, bedspreads, curtains and tablecloths. If this is read in conjunction with the new Part III which is added to the Fourth Schedule the following result will be observed by close students of Parliamentary drafting, but it is almost incomprehensible.

It is that 14th May will be fixed for the date of introduction of the footwear and fur garments concession, 3rd June for Class B material weighing not less than six ozs. and 18th June for cloth and certain linen articles of Class C material. [An HON. MEMBER: "Injustice."] I think it would be a pity if hon. Members regarded attempts made by the Government to meet the wishes of the House as injustice, because that is not the way to obtain justice.

This gives legal effect to D figures which operated before the changes were made and this Amendment provides that for the initial period between the introduction of the scheme, that is 17th March, and the operation of the new reliefs which I have just announced, the final D lists which are Part I and II of the Fourth Schedule are modified as shown in the new Part III, and this new Part III is added to the Bill and sets out the relevant D figures as they operate during the periods. So this combination of hallucinations results in absolute clarity.

Amendment agreed to.