HC Deb 12 June 1952 vol 502 cc388-91
21. Major Beamish

asked the Minister of Health what estimate he has made of the total cost to the taxpayers of removing all charges for drugs, medicines, appliances, dentures, dental treatment and spectacles.

Mr. Iain Macleod

The estimated savings in a full year from the charges authorised by the National Health Service Acts of 1949, 1951 and 1952 are £12 million. £25 million and £7 million, respectively, making a total of £44 million.

Major Beamish

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the reason I put down this Question was to draw attention to the irresponsible statement which the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) made on the Third Reading of the National Health Service Bill, when he said that now that his party were out of office they had abandoned the ceiling which they themselves fixed?

Mr. Macleod

That question does not appear to be addressed to me but to the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

Mr. Marquand

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend who preceded him as Minister, during the latter stages of the debates which we had on the subject, gave the impression that, for his part, he disliked the charges very much and wished he could get rid of them, whereas the present Minister gave the impression that he liked them very much and wanted to retain them in perpetuity? May we now be told what is the Government's present policy?

Mr. Macleod

That has remarkably little to do with the Question which was put down. The right hon. Gentleman will, no doubt, be interested to calculate that of the £44 million given in the answer, £37 million were implemented under Socialist Acts and £7 million under Conservative Acts.

Mr. Hector Hughes

On a point of order. Having regard to the terms in which the first supplementary question was asked, Sir, indicating that it was asked for an ulterior purpose and not for the purpose of gaining information, is the questioner not guilty of a breach of the rules of the House?

Mr. Speaker

It is impossible for me to know the motive which lies behind hon. Members putting down Questions when they appear on the Order Paper. Questions should be confined to seeking information, and not for purposes of debate. It would save the time of the House a great deal if that rule were more generally observed by hon. Members.

Major Beamish

May I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I put down this Question because I thought that the figure which would be given would be of great interest to the House and the country?

Mr. Bellenger

Is it not a breach of the rules of the House for an hon. Member to put a Question to a Minister for the alleged purpose of launching an attack on another Member?

Mr. Speaker

It is very unusual, but I have noticed hon. Members on both sides of the House very frequently ask Questions and follow them up with supplementaries which are rather in the nature of debate than seeking further elucidation.

Mr. Stokes

Surely it is within your recollection, Mr. Speaker, that it is the tradition of the House that the purpose of putting down a Question is to ask a supplementary which is not allowed by the Table?

Mr. Speaker

I cannot give any countenance to that interpretation of the rules relating to Questions. I would say again to hon. Members that supplementary questions are bound by the same rules of order as the Questions on the Order Paper. Of course, the Chair is at a great disadvantage because it does not know what the supplementary question is until it is uttered. For the prompt transaction of this part of our business I have to rely on the good sense of hon. Members.

Sir T. Moore

Was not the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) the greatest culprit in that respect when he was a back bencher?

33. Mr. M. Stewart

asked the Minister of Health what action he has advised hospitals to take in the case of outpatients who are in urgent need of medicine prescribed for them, are required to pay the prescription fee, and have no money with them for this purpose.

Mr. Iain Macleod

I am content to rely on the discretion of hospital authorities in this rare combination of circumstances.

Mr. Stewart

Is the Minister aware that hospitals are already faced with this problem, that some hospital boards are at a loss for a solution and that they will expect something more constructive from the right hon. Gentleman than that reply?

Mr. Macleod

I am reasonably up to date in this and I have been round the hospitals since the appointed day. I have not found these difficulties and I am quite content to rely on the discretion of the hospitals in this matter.

Mr. Blenkinsop

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many cases are already arising—some have arisen in my constituency—in which it is important that some exemption should be given to categories of cases, but that this quite absurd waste of time and difficulty is now taking place?

Mr. Bevan

Does the Minister mean by his reply that the hospitals have discretion to waive this charge?

Mr. Macleod

The hospitals will do everything they can to carry out—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—I am answering —the law. I am quite content to rely on their discretion—[HON. MEMBERS: "They have no discretion"]—if the sort of circumstances mentioned arise in which an out-patient urgently needs medicine and has not the 1s. or has not time to go to the Assistance Board for it.

Mr. Bevan

This is a rather serious matter and I think all hon. Members would like to know what the situation is. Is it a fact, as the right hon. Gentleman appears to have indicated, that the hospital authorities have the right, where they consider there is emergency sickness, to waive the 1s. charge?

Mr. Macleod

It is not a question of waiving the 1s. charge. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that there is an Act of Parliament and it is expected that the Act will be carried out. But it is quite possible to envisage circumstances, not only at the out-patients' department, but at the chemist's as well, in which someone would be in difficulty, just as he or she might be in difficulty at the dentists and, as I have said, I am prepared to rely on the discretion of the hospital.

Mr. Bevan

I think that the right hon. Gentleman is now confusing every one. Will not he reply so that we can be clear about it? Is it merely that the hospital authorities will assist patients to obtain finance from the National Assistance officer or will they have the power to waive the charge itself?

Mr. Macleod

If that sort of circumstance arises, if the hospital deems it necessary that the person who has not 1s. ought to have this treatment or ought to have the medicine necessary, then, I have said, and I say it again, I am quite prepared, in those special circumstances, for the hospital to use its own discretion as to whether he should be asked to get the 1s. or whether he will be supplied with the medicine. Nothing can be clearer than that.

Mr. M. Stewart

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.