HC Deb 23 July 1952 vol 504 cc514-7
23. Dr. King

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many boys from secondary grammar schools were in the first 31 of the 98 candidates who passed the recent qualifying written examination for Dartmouth.

The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mt. J. P. L. Thomas)

Thirteen, Sir.

Dr. King

Is the First Lord aware that, despite the fact that 13 grammar school boys were in the first 31 of the written examination, only seven grammar school boys were selected by the interviewing authority?

Mr. Thomas

Yes, Sir; I am aware of that, but the figures in this particular case will not differ very much between the secondary grammar school and the independent and direct grant schools.

24. Dr. King

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many of the 54 boys from grammar schools and how many of the 44 boys from independent and direct grant schools, who passed the recent qualifying written examination for Dartmouth were rejected on medical grounds.

Mr. J. P. L. Thomas

Twelve and seven respectively were found medically unfit for entry in any branch.

Dr. King

Do the Minister's figures show on what grounds this discrimination took place against grammar school boys? Will he explain how it is that, out of 54 grammar school boys who passed the written examination, only seven were selected by the interviewing body, whereas out of 44 public school boys, 24 were selected by the interviewing body?

Mr. Thomas

I think the latter figure is not 44, but 37, but the fact remains that I have attended one of these interviewing boards, and I can say that they are very fairly conducted. The answer simply is that the others did not come up to the qualities expected or needed.

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Dugdale

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the composition of the interviewing board?

Mr. Thomas

The interviewing board is set up in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, and consists of representatives of the Admiralty, with the Judge Advocate as Chairman, representatives of the Ministry of Education, of the local education authorities, and also representatives from Scotland. I think there are 13 in all.

Mr. N. Macpherson

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that, when I asked a similar question of his predecessor in regard to grammar school boys, I was told that it was not the practice of the Government to interfere with the decisions of the selection board? Is that still the practice of the Government?

Mr. Thomas

Our practice on this point is very similar to that of our predecessors.

Mr. M. Stewart

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the members of the interviewing board were themselves educated at public schools, and may not that explain the preference?

Mr. Thomas

The interviewing board is not always the same. Ft changes very frequently, and I cannot possible tell how many of the members received their education at public schools.

25. Dr. King

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what qualities were judged at the recent selection interviews for Dartmouth.

Mr. J. P. L. Thomas

Intelligence, common sense, character and personality.

Dr. King

Since these are constant qualities emerging regularly in grammar school boys, as in public school boys, will the Minister attempt to explain why, whereas in the past three years, the proportion of grammar school boys who passed the written examination and satisfied the interviewing board was one in four, as against one in two for public school boys, since the Government have taken office, the proportion has now dropped to one in seven selected from grammar school boys? Does he realise that we want the best boys to be officers, whether they are educated at grammar schools or at public schools, and that the retrogression from the policy of the late Government in opening the officer class to all our children is a very bad change?

Mr. Thomas

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the interviewing board, which he criticises on this occasion, was set up by our predecessors and is the same as it was under them and that these tests are exactly the same. I must ask the House to await the report of the very important and high-powered Committee on this particular problem, but I gave a pledge to the House on the Navy Estimates, and I repeat it now, that we are determined to see that a fair chance is given to all boys, whatever their educational background, who have the qualities and qualifications required of a future naval officer.

Mr. W. J. Edwards

The first Lord just said that the situation today with regard to interviews is almost identical with that under the previous Government. Would he be good enough to say what he means by "almost identical," and what change has taken place in the procedure adopted by the previous Government?

Mr. Thomas

If I said "almost identical," I withdraw the "almost" because in every single case I think the members of the board are the same as under our predecessors. There may have been a change of one member, but I think that at the moment the board is the same as it was under our predecessors.

Mr. Jay

Did not the right hon. Gentleman say just now that the members of the board were constantly changing? How, then, can it be identical?

Mr. Thomas

The board is constantly changing, but the present board about which the hon. Member asked happens to be the same board which sat under the previous Government.

Sir H. Williams

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the selection board which picked Ministers in the last Government had any undue preference for public school boys?