HC Deb 23 July 1952 vol 504 cc534-50
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank)

As hon. Members will be aware, I moved to report Progress at two o'clock this morning, as it was evident that a handful of Socialist Members, who then appeared—

Mr. Shinwell

On a point of order. Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to describe hon. Members of this House as "Socialist Members," ignoring the proper designation of "honourable Members"?

Mr. Speaker

It is always customary to prefix the title "honourable."

Mr. Crookshank

Hon. and Socialist Members—is that it? It is quite clear to whom I refer. They then appeared to constitute the Opposition and were bent on prolonging proceedings to a very late hour, or perhaps I should say a very early hour, on the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill, a Measure which has been regarded as uncontentious—if not, indeed, formal. The result of the Division was 105 to 20. The remainder of that Bill—we got only Clause 1—as well as other necessary Government business, is, therefore down for today, in addition—

Mr. Harold Davies

It is due to the right hon. Gentleman's own muddle.

Mr. Crookshank

—to the business already announced; and with good will it can be disposed of. As Leader of the House I have taken note—[Interruption]—of the determination—

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Crookshank

—of some hon. Members opposite to delay Government business and to keep a necessarily large number of Government supporters sitting up until the small hours. Hon. Members have their duties to perform, but undue debate on matters which are usually treated as formal or uncontentious must lead, particularly at this very late period of the Session, to a situation which affects every hon. Member of this House.

Her Majesty's Government have been examining means by which the business can be completed and the House rise before August Bank Holiday; which, I am sure, is desired by the great majority of the House and could be done without the Opposition sacrificing any of their undoubted rights of debate. We shall this evening get as far as we can with the business before us, but what we have not completed by a reasonable hour will have to be postponed to another day, with the inevitable result that the House may have to sit on August Bank Holiday—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and perhaps beyond.

This is simply a plain statement of cause and effect. The discussions which are taking place between my right hon. Friend, the Government Chief Whip, and the right hon. Gentleman, the Opposition Chief Whip, could mean a very satisfactory arrangement. Unfortunately, the actions of some hon. Members opposite do not seem to bear any relation to the intentions and labours of the usual channels, whose co-operation is essential to the dignity and smooth working of the House.

Mr. Attlee

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that from an inquiry I have made I gather that the whole matter could have been settled had it been properly handled by those in charge on the Treasury Bench? Is he also aware that a business statement has seldom, in my recollection, been used for making a partisan attack of this kind in entirely unbecoming terms? May I also ask him whether he recalls the numerous occasions during the last six and a half years on which five or six Members on the other side kept the House night after night?

Mr. Crookshank

The right hon. Gentleman ought to have been the first to recollect that late night Sittings in the last Parliament on Prayers were not initiated by the Opposition Front Bench as such; they were initiated by Private Members; whereas last night's business was, of course, in the charge of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede).

Mr. Attlee

I understood that the burden of the right hon. Gentleman's complaint was that these things might have been settled through the usual channels, and that the trouble was due to certain other Members on the back benches. Now he is claiming that all the trouble when we were the Government, and from the other side, was due to the back benches.

Mr. I. O. Thomas

On a point of order. As one of the Members of last night's "Night Brigade," may I put this point to you, Mr. Speaker? Is it in order for the Leader of the House to cast a reflection upon the manner in which the Chairman conducted the business in the Chamber last night, by imputing or inferring that he allowed Members of the Opposition deliberately to waste the time of the Committee without calling them to order?

Mr. Speaker

I heard no imputation against the occupant of the Chair last night.

Mr. Thomas

I think it was implied.

Mr. Speaker

The Chair is hound by Rules, as hon. Members are—

Mr. Thomas

Exactly.

Mr. Speaker

—and it is sometimes very difficult for the Chair in a situation of that kind.

Mr. Foot

Is the Leader of the House aware, as the rest of the House is aware, that the business of the House has been getting into greater and greater difficulties over the past several months, and that we have had a series of occasions on which important business has been set down for 10 o'clock that has kept us up late—up to 2 o'clock last night? Does he not yet realise that these difficulties are due to his gross incompetence as Leader of the House?

Mr. Bing

Would the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking—

Mr. Snow

He is not listening.

Mr. Bing

Would the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking to attend tonight's debate on the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill? In which case he will have an opportunity of knowing that the difficulty which arose last night was due to his hon. Friend failing to have entered the accounts of the Isle of Man upon which the Bill was based, and failing to have available the Resolutions of the Tynwald upon which, it was said, the matter was based? Will he, therefore, see that before we consider the matter tonight there will be available in the Library the statement of the funds of the Isle of Man upon which the Bill is based—the accounts upon which these taxes are said to be based—and the Resolutions of the Tynwald by which, it is said, the Government are bound?

Mr. Speaker

This is not the occasion for a speech on the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill. Sir Herbert Williams.

Sir H. Williams rose—

Mr. Bing

On a point of order. Naturally, I gave way to you, Mr. Speaker, without concluding the other part of my question. What I was saying was in an interrogative form, dealing with business generally. I was going on—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. We can have only one point of order at a time. I understand that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) was rising to a point of order?

Mr. Bing

I was merely saying that I naturally gave way to you, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am afraid I cannot hear the hon. and learned Gentleman further.

Sir H. Williams

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Leader of the Opposition is totally unfamiliar with what happened last night? [HON. MEMBERS: "So are you."] No. In regard to the allegation about prolonging proceedings in the last Parliament on Prayers, that happened on only one occasion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It happened on only one occasion, and on that occasion the proceedings were prolonged entirely due to the fact that no hon. Member on our side was permitted to make a speech unobstructed for more than two minutes at a time because of the opposition created by disorderly hon. Members opposite.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot have a debate on this. There is no Question before the House. However, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) was alluded to.

Mr. Ede

As the right hon. Gentleman alluded to me I hope the House will allow me to make a personal statement. I sat, as is my custom, in the Chamber during the greater part of the evening—I think continuously from 10 o'clock onwards. I took no part in the discussion until the right hon. Gentleman came in and moved to report Progress and in the course of his remarks alluded to me. I do not know what he means by the allusion he has made to me today.

Mr. Crookshank

I am sorry if I have offended the right hon. Gentleman, but, of course, he was here, and, he being the most senior Member of the Opposition then present, I naturally assumed that he was in charge of the Opposition's affairs. If I ascribed to him an honour which he was not then enjoying, I am sorry. I again repeat that there is no relationship whatsoever between the flow of the debate yesterday and what may have happened in the previous Parliament. I again say that Prayers were then initiated by Private Members. I admit that there was an occasion on which there was extended debate on the Finance Bill. It resulted in extra time being given by the Government. This year the official Opposition had no need to do anything of that sort, because we conceded the time before it ever started.

Mr. Ede

I have made a personal explanation. I gathered, when the right hon. Gentleman rose, that he possibly desired to make a further personal statement on that. I understood that a personal statement ought to be of an entirely uncontroversial nature. I have listened to what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I take it whence it comes—as the old woman said who was walking across the common when a donkey kicked her.

Mr. Speaker

I think we had better stop this here.

Motion made, and Question put, That the Proceedings on the Civil List Bill, the Marine and Aviation Insurance (War Risks) Bill and the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 273; Noes, 232.

Division No. 223.] AYES [3.50 p.m.
Aitken, W. T. Drewe, C. Lambton, Viscount
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond) Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Alport, C. J. M. Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Langford-Holt, J. A.
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Duthie, W. S. Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.
Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M. Leather, E. H. C.
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Arbuthnot, John Erroll, F. J. Legh, P. R. (Petersfield)
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) Finlay, Graeme Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Fisher, Nigel Lindsay, Martin
Astor, Hon. W. W. (Bucks, Wycombe) Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. Linstead, H. N.
Baker, P. A. D. Fletcher-Cooke, C. Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Fort, R. Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Baldwin, A. E. Foster, John Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)
Banks, Col. C. Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.
Barlow, Sir John Gage, C. H. Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.)
Baxter, A. B. Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) Low, A. R. W.
Beach, Maj. Hicks Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Beamish, Maj. Tufton Gammans, L. D. Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Garner-Evans, E. H. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.
Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston) Godber, J. B. McCallum, Major D.
Bennett, William (Woodside) Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Gough, C. F. H. Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)
Birch, Nigel Gower, H. R. Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Bishop, F. P. Graham, Sir Fergus McKibbin, A. J.
Black, C. W. Gridley, Sir Arnold McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Boothby, R. J. G. Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Bowen, E. R. Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Maclean, Fitzroy
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Harden, J. R. E. MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)
Boyle, Sir Edward Hare, Hon. J. H. Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Braine, B. R. Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Macpherson, Maj. Niall (Dumfries)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N. W.) Harris, Reader (Heston) Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Bromley-Davenport, Lt. Col. W. H. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)
Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield) Marlowe, A. A. H.
Brooman-White, R. C. Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Marples, A. E.
Browne, Jack (Govan) Harvie-Watt, Sir George Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sutton)
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. Hay, John Maude, Angus
Bullard, D. G. Heath, Edward Maudling, R.
Bullock, Capt. M. Henderson, John (Cathcart) Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.
Burden, F. F. A. Higgs, J. M. C. Medlicott, Brig. F.
Butcher, H. W. Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Mellor, Sir John
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Molson, A. H. E.
Carr, Robert (Mitcham) Hirst, Geoffrey Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Cary, Sir Robert Holland-Martin, C. J. Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.
Channon, H. Hollis, M. C. Nabarro, G. D. N.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S. Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) Nicholls, Harmar
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Holt, A. F. Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Hope, Lord John Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)
Cole, Norman Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Nield, Basil (Chester)
Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Horobin, I. M. Nutting, Anthony
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Oakshott, H. D.
Cranborne, Viscount Howard, Greville (St. Ives) Odey, G. W.
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Antrim, N.)
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.
Crouch, R. F. Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J. Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Hurd, A. R. Osborne, C.
Cuthbert, W. N. Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.) Partridge, E.
Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clarke (E'b'rgh W.) Peake, Rt. Hon. O.
Davidson, Viscountess Hutchison, James (Scoutstoun) Perkins, W. R. D.
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
De la Bère, Sir Rupert Jennings, R. Peyton, J. W. W.
Deedes, W. F. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Pickthorne, K. W. M.
Digby, S. Wingfield Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Jones, A. (Hall Green) Pitman, I. J.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA Kaberry, D. Powell, J. Enoch
Donner, P. W. Keeling, Sir Edward Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Doughty, C. J. A. Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge) Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Drayson, G. B. Lambert, Hon. G. Profumo, J. D.
Raikes, H. V. Speir, R. M. Turner, H. F. L.
Redmayne, M. Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.) Turton, R. H.
Remnant, Hon. P. Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.) Tweedsmuir, Lady
Renton, D. L. M. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Vane, W. M. F.
Roberts, Peter (Heeley) Stevens, G. P. Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.
Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) Wade, D. W.
Robson-Brown, W. Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Roper, Sir Harold Storey, S. Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
Russell, R. S. Studholme, H. G. Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)
Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. Summers, G. S. Wellwood, W.
Schofield, Lt. Col. W. (Rochdale) Sutcliffe, H. White, Baker (Canterbury)
Scott, R. Donald Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. Teeling, W. William, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Shepherd, William Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)
Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Smithers, Peter (Winchester) Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Wills, G.
Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Smyth, Brig, J. G. (Norwood) Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Wood, Hon. R.
Snadden, W. McN. Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.
Soames, Capt. C. Tilney, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Spearman, A. C. M. Touche, Sir Gordon Major Conant and Mr. Vosper.
NOES
Acland, Sir Richard Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) Keenan, W.
Albu, A. H. Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.
Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell) Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) King, Dr. H. M.
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Ewart, R. Kinley, J.
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Fernyhough, E. Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Awbery, S. S. Field, W. J. Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)
Bacon, Miss Alice Fienburgh, W. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)
Balfour, A. Finch, H. J. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Logan, D. G.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Follick, M. MacColl, J. E.
Bence, C. R. Foot, M. M. McGhee, H. G.
Benn, Wedgwood Forman, J. C. McInnes, J.
Benson, G. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) McKay, John (Wallsend)
Beswick, F. Freeman, John (Watford) McLeavy, F.
Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Freeman, Peter (Newport) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)
Bing, G. H. C. Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Blackburn, F. Gibson, C. W. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Blenkinsop, A. Gooch, E. G. Mann, Mrs. Jean
Blyton, W. R. Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Manuel, A. C.
Boardman, H. Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield) Mellish, R. J.
Bowden, H. W. Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Messer, F.
Bowles, F. G. Grey, C. F. Mikardo, Ian
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mitchison, G. R.
Brockway, A. F. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Monslow, W.
Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Hall, John (Gateshead, W.) Moody, A. S.
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) Morley, R.
Burke, W. A. Hamilton, W. W. Mort, D. L.
Burton, Miss F. E. Hannan, W. Moyle, A.
Callaghan, L. J. Hardy, E. A. Murray, J. D.
Carmichael, J. Hargreaves, A. Nally, W.
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Chapman, W. D. Hastings, S. Oldfield, W. H.
Chetwynd, G. R. Hayman, F. H. Oliver, G. H.
Clunie, J. Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.) Oswald, T.
Cocks, F. S. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Collick, P. H. Herbison, Miss M. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Craddock, George (Bradford. S.) Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth) Pannell, Charles
Crosland, C. A. R. Hoy, J. H. Pargiter, G. A.
Cullen, Mrs. A. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Parker, J.
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Paton, J.
Darling, George (Hillsborough) Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Pearson, A.
Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Peart, T. F.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) Hynd, H. (Accrington) Plummer, Sir Leslie
Davies, Harold (Leek) Irving, A. J. (Edge Hill) Porter, G.
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)
de Freitas, Geoffrey Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)
Deer, G. Janner, B. Proctor, W. T.
Delargy, H. J. Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Pryde, D. J.
Dodds, N. N. Jeger, George (Goole) Rankin, John
Donnelly, D. L. Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.) Reeves, J.
Driberg, T. E. N. Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Reid, Thomas (Swindon)
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bremwich) Johnson, James (Rugby) Reid, William (Camlachie)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) Rhodes, H
Edelman, M. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Richards, R.
Edwards, John (Brighouse) Jones, Frederic Elwyn (West Ham, S.) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Ross, William Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Royle, C. Taylor, John (West Lothian) White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Schofield, S. (Barnsley) Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Shackleton, E. A. A. Thomas, David (Aberdare) Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. Thomas, George (Cardiff) Wilkins, W. A.
Short, E. W. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.)
Shurmer, P. L. E. Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Williams, David (Neath)
Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Thomson. George (Dundee, E.) Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)
Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Slater, J. Thurtle, Ernest Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)
Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Timmons, J. Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Smith, Norman (Nottingham. S.) Tomney, F. Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)
Snow, J. W. Turner-Samuels, M. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Sorensen, R. W. Usborne, H. C. Wyatt, W. L.
Sparks, J. A. Viant, S. P. Yates, V. F.
Steele, T. Watkins, T. E. Younger Rt. Hon. K.
Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)
Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. Wells, Percy (Faversham) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. Wells, William (Walsall) Mr. Popplewell and
Swingler, S. T. West, D. G. Mr. Arthur Allen.
Sylvester, G. O. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Third Reading of the Civil List Bill may be taken immediately after the consideration of the Bill, as amended, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the interval between the various stages of such a Bill.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton

The statement that we heard a few moment ago from the Leader of the House seemed to indicate that there is not now quite the same urgency in getting Government business disposed of that we had thought. It now appears that, after all, the House will have to sit on August Bank Holiday, a decision with which I have no quarrel and with which most of my hon. Friends on this side of the House have no quarrel This decision does help, however, to destroy the validity of the argument of urgency that has been advanced on more than one occasion by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite.

I am not going to attempt the impossible task of teaching the Leader of the House manners or of how to conduct himself as the Leader of the House, but I urge upon the House that there is now no case for taking the Third Reading of the Civil List Bill immediately after the Report stage, as is now proposed. The Committee stage of the Civil List Bill was concluded only at 12.30 or one o'clock this morning, and it is surely an abuse of the procedure of the House to ask us to agree to this Motion.

I am not going to traverse the arguments which have been advanced both for and against this Bill. What I want to make quite clear at the present moment is that there is no case now for this Motion, that we on this side of the House, or, at any rate, some of us, are prepared to give whatever further time is necessary for the dignified and decorous discussion of this Bill and other legislation which the Government have in mind. For this reason, I want to register my objection to this Motion, and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may, in the new circumstances that have arisen since he put down this Motion, be prepared to withdraw it.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

May I, who took part in the debate on the Civil List Bill and sat into the early hours of the morning, say a few words in opposing this Motion? Why is there urgency to rush the Civil List Bill through without due consideration of every aspect of it, especially in view of the circumstances of the Bill and the fact that we are likely to get the opportunity only once in a generation to discuss the principles outlined in it?

I submit that a large number of hon. Members were unable to hear the very cogent, elaborate and complicated arguments of the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), who went into detail about whether or not the Civil List should he subject to taxation, and that if they were aware of these arguments it would greatly influence their decision on the Bill.

The difficulty is that hon. Members who were not here will have no opportunity of reading the very elaborate arguments of the hon. Member for Sowerby until the OFFICIAL REPORT appears tomorrow morning. I think that the House should give consideration to those very important and elaborate arguments, and as there is no great urgency for the Civil List Bill this week, it should be discussed on Friday, with decorum and dignity, and should not be rushed through in this way which prevents proper discussion.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 267; Noes, 223.

Division No. 224.] AYES [4.6 p.m.
Aitken, W. T. Fletcher-Cooke, C. Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight)
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Fort, R. Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Alport, C. J. M. Foster, John McKibbin, A. J.
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) Gage, C. H. Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) Maclean, Fitzroy
Arbuthnot, John Gammans, L. D. Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) Garner-Evans, E. H. Macpherson, Maj. Niall (Dumfries)
Assheton, Rt. Hon R. (Blackburn, W.) George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Astor, Hon. W. W. (Bucks, Wycombe) Godber, J. B. Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)
Baker, P. A. D. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A Marlowe, A. A. H.
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Gough, C. F. H. Marples, A. E.
Baldwin, A. E. Gower, H. R. Marshall, Sir Sidney (Sulton)
Banks, Col. C. Graham, Sir Fergus Maude, Angus
Barlow, Sir John Gridley, Sir Arnold Maudling, R.
Baxter, A. B. Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.
Beach, Maj. Hicks Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Medlicott, Brig. F.
Beamish, Maj. Tufton Harden, J. R. E. Mellor, Sir John
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Hare, Hon. J. H. Molson, A. H. E.
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston) Harris, Reader (Heston) Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.
Bennett, William (Woodside) Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Nabarro, G. D. N.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield) Nicholls, Harmar
Bishop, F. P. Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)
Black, C. W. Harvie-Watt, Sir George Nield, Basil (Chester)
Boothby, R. J. G. Hay, John Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P.
Bowen, E. R. Heald, Sir Lionel Nutting, Anthony
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Heath, Edward Oakshott, H. D.
Boyle, Sir Edward Henderson, John (Cathcart) Odey, G. W.
Braine, B. R. Higgs, J. M. C. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H (Antrim, M.)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N. W.) Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Hirst, Geoffrey Osborne, C.
Brooman-White, R. C. Holland-Martin, C. J. Partridge, E.
Browne, Jack (Govan) Hollis, M. C. Peake, Rt. Hon. O.
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. Holt, A. F. Perkins, W. R. D.
Bullard, D. G. Hope, Lord John Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
Bullock, Capt. M. Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Peyton, J. W. W.
Burden, F. F. A. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Butcher, H. W. Horobin, I. M. Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Pitman, I. J.
Carr, Robert (Mitcham) Howard, Greville (St. Ives) Powell, J. Enoch
Cary, Sir Robert Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Prior-Palmer, Brig O. L.
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J. Profumo, J. D.
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Hurd, A. R. Raikes, H. V.
Cole, Norman Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.) Redmayne, M.
Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Remnant, Hon. P.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Hutchison, James (Scotstoun) Renton, D. L. M.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Roberts, Peter (Heeley)
Cranborne, Viscount Jennings, R. Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, [...])
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Robson-Brown, W.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Crouch, R. F. Jones, A. (Hall Green) Roper, Sir Harold
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Kaberry, D. Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Cuthbert, W. N. Keeling, Sir Edward Russell, R. S.
Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge) Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.
Davidson, Viscountess Lambert, Hon. G. Schofield, Lt.-Col. W (Rochdale)
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) Lambton, Viscount Scott, R. Donald
De la Bère, Sir Rupert Lancaster, Col. C. G. Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Deedes, W. F. Langford-Holt, J. A. Shepherd, William
Digby, S. Wingfield Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. Smiles,, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Leather, E. H. C. Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Donaldson, Cmdr C. E. McA. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)
Donner, P. W. Legh, P. R (Petersfield) Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)
Doughty, C. J. A. Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. Snadden, W. McN.
Drayson, G. B. Lindsay, Martin Soames, Capt. C.
Drewe, C. Linstead, H. N. Spearman, A. C. M.
Dugdale, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir T (Richmond) Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton) Speir, R. M.
Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.)
Duthie, W. S. Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S.W.) Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)
Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M. Low, A. R. W. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Stevens, G. P.
Erroll, F. J. Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.)
Finlay, Graeme Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)
Fisher, Nigel McCallum, Major D. Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. Storey, S.
Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Tilney, John Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)
Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) Touche, Sir Gordon Wellwood, W.
Studholme, H. G. Turner, H. F. L. White, Baker (Canterbury)
Summers, G. S. Turton, R. H. Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Sutcliffe, H. Tweedsmuir, Lady Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Vane, W. M. F. Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)
Teeling, W. Vaughan-Morgan J. K. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) Vosper, D. F. Wills, G.
Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Wade, D. W. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) Wood, Hon. R.
Thompson, Lt-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) Ward, Hon George (Worcester)
Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Thornton-Kemsley, Col C. N. Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. Major Conant and
Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith.
NOES
Acland, Sir Richard Forman, J. C. Mort, D. L.
Albu, A. H. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Moyle, A.
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Freeman, John (Watford) Murray, J. D.
Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell) Freeman, Peter (Newport) Nally, W.
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Awbery, S. S. Gibson, C. W. Oldfield, W. H.
Bacon, Miss Alice Gooch, E. G. Oliver, G. H.
Balfour, A. Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Oswald, T.
Barnes, Rt. Hon A. J. Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Bellenger, Rt. Hon F. J. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Bence, C. R. Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Pannell, Charles
Benn, Wedgwood Grey, C. F. Pargiter, G. A.
Benson, G. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Parker, J.
Beswick, F. Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) Paton, J.
Bevan, Rt. Hon A (Ebbw Vale) Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Peart, T. F.
Bing, G. H. C. Hall, John (Gateshead, W.) Plummer, Sir Leslie
Blackburn, F. Hamilton, W. W. Popplewell, E.
Blenkinsop, A. Hannan, W. Porter, G.
Blyton, W. R. Hardy, E. A. Price, Joseph T (Westhoughton)
Boardman, H. Hargreaves, A. Proctor, W. T.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Harrison, J (Nottingham, E.) Pryde, D. J.
Bowden, H. W. Hastings, S. Reeves, J.
Bowles, F. G. Hayman, F. H. Reid, Thomas (Swindon)
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.) Reid, William (Camlachie)
Brockway, A. F. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (Rowley Regis) Rhodes, H.
Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Herbison, Miss M. Richards, R.
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Hoy, J. H. Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Burke, W. A. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Burton, Miss F. E. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Callaghan, L. J. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Carmichael, J. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Ross, William
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Royle, C.
Chapman, W. D. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Schofield, S. (Barnsley)
Chetwynd, G. R. Janner, B. Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.
Clunie, J. Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Short, E. W.
Cocks, F. S. Jeger, George (Goole) Shurmer, P. L. E.
Collick, P. H. Jeger, Dr Santo (St. Pancras, S.) Silverman, Julius (Erdington)
Craddock, George (Bradford. S) Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Crosland, C. A. R. Johnson, James (Rugby) Slater, J.
Cullen, Mrs. A. Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)
Darling, George (Hillsborough) Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.) Snow, J. W.
Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.) Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Sorensen, R. W.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Sparks, J. A.
Davies, Harold (Leek) Kennan, W. Steele, T.
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Kenyon, C. Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)
de Freitas, Geoffrey Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Deer, G. King, Dr. H. M. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.
Delargy, H. J. Kinley, J. Stross, Dr. Barnett
Dodds, N. N. Lee, Frederick (Newton) Swingler, S. T.
Donnelly, D. L. Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Sylvester, G. O.
Driberg, T. E. N. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W Bromwich) MacColl, J. E. Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. McGhee, H. G. Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)
Edelman, M. McInnes, J. Thomas, David (Aberdare)
Edwards, John (Brighouse) McKay, John (Wallsend) Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) McLeavy, F. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)
Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Mann, Mrs. Jean Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Manuel, A. C. Thurtle, Ernest
Ewart, R. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Timmons, J.
Fernyhough, E. Mellish, R. J. Tomney, F.
Fienburgh, W. Messer, F. Turner-Samuels, M.
Finch, H. J. Mitchison, G. R. Usborne, H. C.
Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) Monslow, W. Viant, S. P.
Follick, M. Moody, A. S. Watkins, T. E.
Foot, M. M. Morley, R. Webb, Rt. Hon. M (Bradford, C.)
Wells, Percy (Faversham) Willey, Frederick (Sunderland, N.) Wyatt, W. L.
Wells, William (Walsall) Williams, David (Neath) Yates, V. F.
West, D. G. Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.) Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) Lieut.-Cot. Lipton and
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) Mr. Emrys Hughes.
Witkins, W. A. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.