HC Deb 27 February 1952 vol 496 cc1124-9
30. Mr. Cahir Healy

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what powers have been delegated by his Department to the Government of Northern Ireland to enable them to open postal packages in transit; and whether he will undertake to withdraw this authority.

Mr. Gammans

None, Sir.

Mr. Healy

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Post Office in Belfast is used for party purposes, and does this really differ from the practice in totalitarian countries where opponents' letters are opened?

Mr. Gammans

I did not pick up what the hon. Gentleman said. Perhaps he would be good enough to put it again.

Mr. Healy

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that opponents' letters are being opened in Northern Ireland, and is that any different from the practice in certain Continental countries?

Mr. Gammans

That is not the Question which I was asked. The hon. Gentleman asked me if powers had been delegated to the Government of Northern Ireland and whether I would undertake to withdraw any authority given. My answer is that we have delegated no authority.

Mr. J. Beattie

What action does the hon. Gentleman propose to take to prevent persons not directly under his control using accommodation in Room 22 of the G.P.O. in Belfast for the censorship of letters and mail?

Mr. Gammans

That point does not in any way arise.

Mr. Speaker

The supplementary question, I gather, concerns people who are not under the control of the Post Office. If that is so, the question cannot be asked.

Mr. Beattie

This is taking place in the building which is under the control of the hon. Gentleman. Will he take action to prevent these unauthorised persons using those premises for the censorship of mails and letters?

Mr. Gammans

If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask me that question he must put it down. That does not in any way arise out of the Question on the Order Paper.

Mr. E. Shinwell

If the allegation made by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Beattie), is true, that postal packets and letters are being censored in accommodation under the hon. Gentleman's control in Belfast, would it not be his responsibility to deal with the matter?

Mr. Gammons

If that is the question which the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman wants answered and it is put down, I will consider it, but it does not arise from this Question.

Mr. Charles Pannell

Might I call the attention of the House to the terms of the Question? The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Healy) asked the Assistant Postmaster-General what powers had been delegated by his Department. That is what the Question said. Cannot the Minister give a straight answer to it?

Mr. Speaker

I understood the Minister to answer that no powers had been delegated.

Mr. Beattie

If the hon. Gentleman has delegated no powers, why is he allowing the premises to be used?

Mr. Speaker

I think that is a separate question. It is clearly a separate question from the Question which has been answered, and it is ancient usage in this House when a new question is asked as a supplementary, that it is within the Minister's discretion to ask for notice of it. In asking for the question to be on the Order Paper the Assistant Postmaster-General is doing nothing that is not in accordance with the customs of the House.

Mr. Healy

Is the Minister aware that the Minister of Home Affairs in Northern Ireland, in replying to a Question in the Northern Ireland House of Commons, said: "I am not prepared"—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

The difficulty about that question is that certain powers have been given by this House to the Parliament of North Ireland. I cannot tell from the form of this supplementary question whether or not it is in order for this House to discuss the matter, because it might concern the delegated powers. I think it would be in the interests of us all, and to prevent any conflict between the two Houses, that we should see the question on the Order Paper in its proper form.

Mr. Geoffrey Bing

It is also said in the Northern Ireland House of Commons that no question on this issue can be answered there because the responsibility rests here. Under those circumstances, I respectfully suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that it is in order for the question to be asked here, or else there ought to be some consultation between the authorities concerned in order that it may be settled where the question can be asked.

Mr. Speaker

Surely it is reasonable for me to suggest that we should have notice on the Order Paper of the question so that we can see exactly what the question is.

Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton

Is it to be understood that where something in the nature of a criminal or similar offence is brought to the notice of a Minister of the Crown, he is going to take no action whatsoever until the question is put down on the Order Paper?

Mr. Speaker

That is a proposition much wider than I have enunciated. All I am saying is that this House has delegated certain powers to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and a question such as this ought to be on the Order Paper so that we can see whether it is in order or not.

Mr. Beattie

I should like to be accommodating. I have asked a very simple and straightforward question. I am prepared to put it down on the Order Paper at your request, Mr. Speaker.

31. Mr. Healy

asked the Assistant Postmaster-General how many postal packages have been opened in the post offices in Northern Ireland for the purpose of the examination of their contents by the police officers since 1st November, 1951; and how many of these packages were opened in order to exercise a political censorship of their contents.

Mr. Gammans

I assume that the hon. Member refers to packages opened under the Royal Prerogative. I have no information as to the reason for the exercise of this power, and I am advised that it would not be in the public interest to disclose the extent to which it is exercised.

Mr. Healy

Is the Minister aware that the Northern Ireland Minister of Home Affairs has admitted that he is opening letters but he will not give any reason for opening them? Is he further aware that they have been opened in his premises and by persons apparently under his control in Room 22.

Mr. Speaker

If they are under the control of the Minister of Home Affairs in Northern Ireland it is not a matter for this House.

Mr. Healy

I mean under the control of the Assistant Postmaster-General.

Mr. Gammans

That is no concern of mine. I am merely acting under a Warrant which I mentioned in the answer to my Question.

Mr. Shinwell

The hon. Gentleman is now taking refuge in declaring that it might not be in the public interest to interfere. Can he give reasons why the public interest is affected by this? [Interruption.] Mr. Speaker, might I ask my question? [Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite should keep in order. May I repeat my question? Should the hon. Gentleman take refuge by declaring that the public interest in this matter prevents him from disclosing this information, and if so, would he advance a reason why the public interest is affected?

Mr. Gammans

It is not a question of taking refuge at all. The Post Office are only agents in this matter. It might interest the right hon. Gentleman to know that I am acting under a Warrant that was signed during the time of my predecessor.

Mr. Hobson

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been an extension of this practice since November extending to the letters of a political party?

Mr. Gammans

There has been no extension at all. This Warrant was signed while the hon. Gentleman who has just asked that question was occupying my present position.

Sir William Darling

Is it not a fact that the present practices which are being referred to have been in existence for over 20 years.

Mr. Hobson

They have been extended.

Mr. James Callaghan

Can the Minister say how he satisfies himself that the letters which are opened do not go beyond the prerogatives that are accorded to him in this matter unless he knows what the contents are?

Mr. Gammans

I only act under the Royal Prerogative, and the Post Office are only agents in this matter.

Mr. Callaghan

How does the Assistant Postmaster-General know whether his servants are exceeding the Prerogative which is given to them unless he satisfies himself about the nature of the letters opened?

Mr. Gammans

I am satisfied that the Post Office servants in this matter are only acting within the terms of the Warrant and I can assure the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench that the Warrant under which I am acting is exactly that which was granted to my predecesor.

Mr. Ness Edwards

The hon. Gentleman is trying to put his case quite fairly. Certain obligations have been assumed under this Royal Warrant, but the allegation in the Question is that police officers are occupying premises and doing something now that was never intended under the Royal Warrant which has been standing for many years.

Mr. Gammans

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Post Office are doing no more and no less than they did when he was Postmaster-General.

Mr. Gordon Walker

Could the Assistant Postmaster-General answer the first part of the Question, because presumably no question of public interest arises there, and say how many postal packets have been opened?

Mr. Gammons

I cannot answer that question, for the reasons I have given.

Mr. Gordon Walker

May I ask the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he knows, even if he will not tell us, the number that has been opened?

Mr. Gammans

No, I do not.

Mr. Healy

I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.