HC Deb 25 February 1952 vol 496 cc713-8
Mr. Sandys

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement.

In view of the resignation of Mr. Steven Hardie as Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain, I wish to inform the House that I have appointed the Deputy Chairman, Sir John Green, to succeed him as Chairman of the Corporation.

Mr. G. R. Strauss

Before my hon. and learned Friend raises the point which I have in mind, I should like to ask a question. Is it the Minister's intention to appoint another member to the Corporation shortly, because at present it is, I understand, below the statutory minimum. Is that his intention?

Mr. Sandys

That is my intention.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider appointing an independent inquiry to go into the whole of the causes of the resignation?

Mr. Sandys

No, Sir.

Miss Irene Ward

On a point of order. As there has been one supplementary from the other side, would it be in order for there to be one supplementary from this side?

Mr. Speaker

I call Mr. Attlee, who has a question on business.

Mr. Paget

I think that you indicated, Mr. Speaker, that you regard this as a matter of great importance, and that I should, after the Minister's statement, ask leave to move the Motion which I mentioned before.

Mr. Speaker

There is one important Question—that on the business—and at the end of that, it will be in order.

Later—

Mr. Paget

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of calling attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the conduct of the Minister of Supply in forcing the resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation and in sanctioning an increase in steel prices.

Mr. Speaker

The first thing I have to point out is that one cannot make use of this Standing Order procedure on two subjects at the same time. It must be one matter of urgent public importance. Therefore, this Motion is not in accordance with the Standing Order, and I cannot accept it.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has now amended his Motion to read: … a matter of urgent public importance, namely, The action of the Minister of Supply in sanctioning an increase in steel prices.' May I be informed—I ask this of the Minister—whether the increase in steel prices will necessitate an Order?

Mr. Sandys

Yes, Sir. The Order will be laid, and it can be prayed against in the ordinary way.

Mr. Speaker

If the matter is covered by ordinary procedure and the Order can be prayed against when it is laid, the Motion does not fall within the Standing Order.

Mr. Strauss

As the matter seriously affects the economy of the country in many respects and is very urgent, would it be in order to move a Motion dealing with the resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation, around which all the major issues and serious consequences that we have in mind are centred? If that is in order, may we submit such a Motion to you?

Mr. Speaker

If the matter were confined to that issue and any subsequent discussion were strictly confined to it—that is, not dragging in steel prices because that would be out of order—I would consider a Motion on those lines.

Mr. Strauss

I should like to move a Motion on those lines.

Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas

Regarding the relevance of those two subjects and your decision, Mr. Speaker, that they are two separate subjects, would it not be correct to say that the question of steel prices is related to the question of the resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation, and that therefore it would be very difficult to debate the matter if it were restricted in the manner suggested?

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore

Further to that point of order. Could you indicate, Mr. Speaker, how long the House is to wait for the Opposition to clear up this matter?

Mr. Strauss

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of considering a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, The resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation.

Mr. Sandys

On a point of order. I wish to draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the main reason given by the late Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation for his resignation was the question of steel prices. May I ask, Sir, whether you are ruling that it will be out of order to discuss anything to do with steel prices in a debate such as that proposed by the right hon. Gentleman?

Mr. Speaker

The right hon. Gentleman has asked leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of considering a definite matter of urgent public importance, to wit, The resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation. In that form, no responsibility of any Minister is suggested, and the Ad- journment of the House cannot be moved unless the matter falls within the purview of some Minister whose action is called in question. Therefore, the Motion cannot be accepted.

Mr. Strauss

I did not add in the Motion the words that the resignation was caused by the action of the Minister of Supply because I felt that was known by the whole House and therefore the words were unnecessary; but if, Mr. Speaker, the addition of those words is necessary to put the matter formally in order, I shall be very glad to add them.

Mr. Speaker

I am bound very strictly by the Standing Orders, and I am very clear in my own mind that the Motion as put to me is not in order. Consequently, I do not think it is really in the interests of the House that we should continually amend these Motions. They ought to be put forward in a finished form. I think that for discussing these matters the House must choose a method other than Standing Order No. 9.

Mr. H. A. Price

In view of the events of the last five or six minutes, Mr. Speaker, would it be possible for you to instruct hon. Members opposite in the use of Standing Order No. 9?

Mr. Speaker

I do not think that is called for, although Standing Order No. 9 is a very complicated Order.

Mr. Leslie Hale

May I call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the Motion as originally mentioned definitely and specifically called attention to the conduct of the Minister of Supply in forcing the resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation. That was the point put before the House. You, Sir, were good enough to afford the hon. and learned Member—though somewhat hurriedly and in difficult circumstances—the opportunity of amending the Motion. When it was later moved by my right hon. Friend, there were two or three words omitted.

With very great respect, Sir, and appreciating the latitude you have given, would it be in accordance with the traditions of this House to say that the Motion cannot now be moved with those few words reinserted; because, with great respect, I would then submit to you, Sir, that we have not yet proceeded to the Orders of the Day and that I should be perfectly in order in asking leave to move the same Motion myself. However, I think it would be more in accordance with the dignity and the propriety of the House if this Motion were moved by my right hon. Friend, who has a greater knowledge of the subject and greater responsibility.

Mr. F. J. Erroll

Further to that point of order. Was not the resignation of the gentleman in question announced while Parliament was sitting on Friday afternoon, and, therefore, has not all opportunity of raising the matter subsequently been lost?

Mr. Speaker

On the ground of urgency, I think the Motion was in order because, although the resignation was announced on Friday afternoon, the matter could not be raised then, and the hon. and learned Gentleman has taken the first opportunity of doing so.

Mr. I. Mikardo

I wish to refer back, Mr. Speaker, to your Ruling on the Motion as it read when it referred to the subject of steel prices and when you took the counsel of the Minister as to what would be the form in which the matter would come before the House. I submit from memory, and without having Erskine May by me, that what the authorities say is that a Motion to adjourn the House cannot be moved under Standing Order No. 9 if some act bringing the matter before the House has already been committed. In my humble submission, that means that in this case, if the Order which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to lay had already been laid, that would have made it impossible for the Adjournment of the House to be moved under Standing Order No. 9, since an act would already have been committed which would lead to our discussing the matter in another form. But that Order has not yet been laid, and, therefore, it seems to me that a Motion under Standing Order No. 9 cannot be ruled out on that ground.

Mr. Speaker

In answer to that point of order, if there is an early opportunity of discussing the same matter, it does not fall within the Standing Order, and as we have heard that the Order is about to be laid and can be prayed against, that rules out the matter.

Mr. Hale

In view of the fact that the resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation will be wholly irrelevant to the Order which the right hon. Gentleman says he has now made and upon which we can discuss only steel prices, I now beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, The conduct of the Minister of Supply or of Her Majesty's Government, in forcing the resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation.

Mr. Speaker

I will read the amended version to the House: … to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the discussion of a matter of urgent public importance, namely The action of the Minister of Supply in forcing the resignation of the Chairman of the Iron and Steel Corporation.'

Captain Charles Waterhouse

I do not think that what you read, Mr. Speaker, were the words read by the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale).

Mr. Speaker

They are near enough to make no difference. They give the point. In this form, the matter is undoubtedly being raised at the first opportunity, and therefore it is urgent. It is a definite matter in this form. As to its public importance, that is a matter for the House on this occasion.

The pleasure of the House not having been signified, Mr. SPEAKER called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and, not less than Forty Members having accordingly risen, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 9 (Adjournment on definite matter of urgent public importance), until Seven o'Clock this evening.