Approved Schools (Hansard, 11 December 1952)

§ 10. Dr. Stross
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many children and young persons are at present receiving education in approved schools; what is the average length of stay; and how many entrants improve sufficiently so as to return home in one year or less.

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
On 1st November, 1952, there were 8,034 boys and 1,453 girls on the roll of approved schools in England and Wales. The average length of stay in the schools for boys of all ages is 28 months, and for girls of all ages 25 months. In 1951, 177 boys and four girls were released on licence after being in an approved school for less than a year.

§ Dr. Stross
While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for the information he has given, may I ask whether he accepts that it is possible to treat each case as an individual person, and for those who obviously are suitable and who benefit to be allowed to go home in a year, or less than two years, and so on?

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
Yes, Sir. The average period of detention varies, of course, with the different age range of the schools. Most of the boys who were released in less than a year were from the two schools set aside for boys considered at the outset to need only a short period of training. There is also a girls' school. The classifying school, which deals with them beforehand and sends them to the right place, is most important.

§ Mr. G. Thomas
Why is the figure for the girls who respond to the treatment so low, compared with that for the boys?

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
I should not like to dogmatise, as the hon. Gentleman will realise, but the underlying reason is, I think, that the average period of training at the special school for girls is longer than 12 months. I should like to look into the matter to ascertain whether there is anything fresh in regard to it.

§ Mr. Manuel
Could the Home Secretary indicate the number of apprenticeship courses available at approved schools? Is there any liaison with employers' organisations outside so that there may be a proper agreement about the length of apprenticeships still to be served when these young persons leave?

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
I will look into that point. The last time I went round an approved school I heard the boys in one classroom being asked what they were going to do, and everything seemed to tend in that direction; but I should like to get the details before giving a definite reply to the hon. Gentleman.

§ 25. Mr. Driberg
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the maximum hourly overtime rates payable to teaching staffs, cooks, seamstresses and domestic servants in approved schools; how recently these rates have been revised; and if he is satisfied that the rate paid to teachers for performing extraneous duties is adequate.

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 27th November to the Question by the hon. Member for Droylsden (Mr. W. R. Williams). The pay and overtime rates of domestic staff in approved schools are those laid down from time to time by the Ancillary Staffs Council for the Health Services, and were last revised four months ago.

§ Mr. Driberg
Is it not the case that domestic staff, who do, of course, important work, get substantially more overtime pay than teachers, and is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there are various anomalies—for instance, that teachers in approved schools in England get much less than those in Scotland? Will the Home Secretary look into the matter again?

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
Yes, certainly. Perhaps I may meet what, I gather, is the spirit of the hon. Gentleman's Question. The negotiation machinery for those in the position of teachers to whom the Burnham scales apply is not in full operation. We are in negotiation with the local authorities and I earnestly hope that that machinery will be in operation soon and will meet the point that the hon. Member has in mind.

§ Mr. G. Thomas
Has the Home Secretary to give the ultimate sanction in salary agreements for these teachers? If so, will he bear in mind that the extraneous duties in these schools are quite out of the ordinary?

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
I will certainly bear that point in mind.