HC Deb 09 December 1952 vol 509 cc227-32
8 Mr. Anthony Greenwood

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) how many National Service men are employed as officers' servants;

(2) to what extent National Service men are employed as gardeners in the homes of serving officers above the rank of major;

(3) to what extent National Service men are employed in the homes of officers at Catterick Camp; and if he will state the nature of their occupation.

14. Mr. Swingler

asked the Secretary of State for War how many National Service men are employed as gardeners in camps, barracks and depots in the United Kingdom; and how many man-hours per month are occupied by these tasks.

23. Mr. Murray

asked the Secretary of State for War how many officers' servants, waiters in officers' and other messes, and gardeners are employed at Brancepeth Camp, County Durham; and how many are Regulars and National Service men. respectively.

27. Mr. Slater

asked the Secretary of State for War the number of National Service men in the Barnard Castle Camp; and how many are employed as officers' servants and in other non-military duties.

Mr. Head

No National Service men are employed as gardeners. Scales of batmen are laid down for all units and at the present time are under-implemented. The returns do not differentiate between National Service men and Regulars, and to obtain this information I should have to make special inquiries of every unit of the British Army at home and abroad. I do not think this is justified. Commanding officers have been told and are well aware of the need to avoid the misuse of National Service men within units.

I am making special inquiries and will write about the three specific cases raised.

Mr. Greenwood

Will the Secretary of State conduct an investigation to find out exactly how National Service men and Regular soldiers are being employed in view of the fact that the only possible justification for conscription is lack of manpower? Does he not think it is quite ridiculous for able-bodied young men to be employed as parlourmaids, nursemaids and so on, and is it not about time that the War Office really went into this problem?

Mr. Head

I have gone very deeply into this problem since assuming this office and have saved 10,000 men out of the tail, which was not done in the six years of the previous Government. I would add that the whole question of the use of manpower in the Army is one in which the National Service men and the Regulars are together in units, say 500 in a battalion, and that unit has got to arrange its domestic economy. The commanding officers are told that the object of National Service is to train men to be fighting soldiers. Within those terms of reference, we have to trust them.

Mr. Strachey

In view of the first remark of the right hon. Gentleman, would he not agree that the saving in the tail was the result of the recommendations of the Templer Committee? Secondly, is there not something to be said for the idea of not using National Service men at all for this purpose of officer's servants.

Mr. Head

Replying to the right hon. Gentleman's first comment, I am sure he would wish to join me in a tribute to what General Templer did, but we did put on foot a subsequent inquiry and I am starting a further one. I think that every Secretary of State should reduce the Army by a few thousand men a year as part of his job.

It is impossible to be didactic about the National Service man. There are some units where the only source of manpower —and they are exceptional—would be National Service men and there are National Service men as cooks, batmen and in other jobs for which they have specifically volunteered. It is not every National Service man who is particularly qualified for these kind of jobs. I do not myself believe that the use of National Service men is seriously abused at the present time.

Mr. Slater

Is the Minister satisfied with the state of affairs which is going on in the north? My Question related to the Barnard Castle Camp, and would it not be to the advantage of all concerned if there was a restriction in the call-up of National Service men whereby they would be able to make a better contribution to the national economy through being engaged in civil employment instead of being called up?

Mr. Head

I have not the time here to go into the question of the call-up and civil employment. but I would tell the hon. Member that our prospects are that we shall be 15,000 men under strength in the Army in two years' time. We are now attempting to make the best and most economical use of manpower.

Mr. Shinwell

Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously tell the House that he is unable to discover how many National Service men in certain of the Home Commands are employed as officers' servants and undertake gardening duties to the disadvantage of their military training? Does he not think that that could be easily ascertained?

Mr. Head

I have said that no National Service men are employed as gardeners: that I have had three specific inquiries concerned with Home Commands and that I am making inquiries and will write to the hon. Members concerned. All I further said was that, in view of the world-wide dispersal of our Army, to ask for this return would not be justified.

Mr. Ian Harvey

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that all the Questions which have been addressed to him today by hon. Members on the other side of the House refer to a situation which existed under his predecessors and that nothing at all was done?

Mr. Swingler

Does the Minister not remember that, under the last Government, manpower economy committees were established in each Service Department and that as a result considerable economies were made? Is not now the appropriate time, when the defence programme has been reviewed and expenditure on materials is being cut down, to make a general review of the manpower situation, and is he really arguing that to call up men for these purposes and interrupt their careers with all the economic consequences to the nation is justified?

Mr. Head

The hon. Gentleman has a Question down about the review of manpower which I will answer later.

Mr. Isaacs

Has the Minister considered employing disabled ex-Service men for jobs of this sort? They are men who, in many cases, have had considerable military experience and would be quite willing to take such posts, and that would prevent interfering with the training of the young.

Mr. Head

We have done a great deal in the way of substituting civilians for soldiers throughout the Army, but the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that one of the difficulties of expanding that still further is expense.

Mr. Wigg

The right hon. Gentleman told the House that many of these cooks and officers' servants volunteered for the job. Does he now say that the principle of volunteering is allowed to take precedence over National Service training?

Mr. Head

No, Sir. What I said was that these jobs have to be done in the Army, and if any of us goes into the cook-house we would find several cooks —I am sure the hon. Gentleman himself has been around—who would tell us that the reason they were in the cook-house was that they had volunteered for the job. Very often such people intend to be cooks when they go out of the Army. All I said was that to prevent a National Service man being a cook if he wished to volunteer for it would not be a very wise step.

Mr. T. Brown

Is the Minister not aware that it does not serve any useful purpose replying in the manner he has done to Questions on the Order Paper when the evidence in our possession is overwhelmingly against the answers he has given? Might I ask him if he would not respond to the request of my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) for an investigation into the charges that we have received from these men about them being employed on unnecessary work to suit the convenience of the officers?

Mr. Head

If the hon. Gentleman will send me any particulars I will look into them willingly, but I have three investigations going on at the present time in a broad sense in order to save manpower.

Mr. Brown

The particulars are in the right hon. Gentleman's possession.

Mr. Greenwood

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, and in order to provide the right hon. Gentleman with the evidence, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

21. Mr. Grey

asked the Secretary of State for War how many complaints have been received in the last 12 months alleging that National Service men are not fully occupied in regimental duties.

Mr. Head

To get these details would involve circularising all the formation headquarters in this country, which I do not think would be justified.

Mr. Grey

In view of the large number of complaints which the right hon. Gentleman must receive, does he not think there ought to be an inquiry into the whole problem of National Service?

Mr. Head

I repeat that, considering the number called up, the number of complaints received by the War Office is surprisingly small.

Mr. Maude

Is it not a fact that both in the matter of ensuring that National Service men are fully employed and do not have their time wasted and in the saving of administrative tail the present Government have done more in one year than the Labour Government did in six years?