HC Deb 09 December 1952 vol 509 cc421-30

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith.]

12.28 a.m.

Mr. Edwin Leather (Somerset, North)

This is the third successive year on which I have raised the question of the desirability of a compulsory regular X-ray for miners and I regret that little has been done to achieve that end in the three years I have been arguing the case.

I do not want that to be taken as a reflection on the many able and good people who have been doing experimental work and research; but in the way of bringing in a concerted, organised scheme to cover all miners, we are where we stood three years ago. For the last three years I have been arguing that the simplest, cheapest, and quickest way to do this is to use a miniature X-ray film, but the experts, particularly the doctors, refused to accept my view. They said it was not good enough, and would not produce the right answers. I did not accept those views.

We have moved on in these three years and I wish to make a more thorough and elaborate suggestion which I hope the Minister's experts and his doctors will not be able to shut down so easily as my last one. I want to suggest that today the technical difficulties, which prevented introduction of an overall plan for compulsory X-ray three years ago, no longer exist. Sufficient technicians are available now. Sufficient equipment could be made available in a matter of six months at the very outside; there is no problem today that all those who make the equipment are manufacturing something else. It could be done.

I therefore suggest that it is eminently possible and practicable now to have an overall scheme in the worst areas, using a full-sized X-ray plate, the perfect plate which, the doctors say, gives the right answer. Obviously, it would be desirable to have this great preventive measure for all, but that would entail a very large scheme. I therefore suggest that, if it is not practical to do it for all, it is practical to do it in the areas which need it most.

Experience and statistics show that about 85 to 90 per cent. of this problem of dust in miners' lungs affects two areas. mainly South Wales and the Somerset coalfields and Scotland. For some reason best known to our Creator, the vast majority of the problem of dust in miners' lungs exists in those two districts, which, between them, employ about 250,000 men. I am asking for this to be provided for 250,000 and not for 700.000 men, which makes the problem much smaller and simpler.

I say that the technicians and the equipment are available now in this country to provide such a scheme for those two districts, which would cover far and away the worst of this immense problem. I further say that, in my view the total cost of this scheme to the National Coal Board would be of the order of £250,000 a year; that is the gross cost. The saving in human lives, in manpower and production would be immense in comparison with that small cost.

I should now like to say a word about the question of compulsion. I believe that the compulsory principle is of tremendous importance. I repeat, I do not for one moment underrate the very valuable work that lots of good people and lots of experienced doctors are doing at the present time, but there is no overall plan to make use of a great deal of the knowledge that some of our doctors have. One can talk to half-a-dozen experts in South Wales alone and find that they are responsible to quite different organisations.

There is fine work being done in the University of Wales, which is quite separate, and any contact it has with the Research Unit of the National Coal Board, and so on, is purely incidental and due to the fact that the doctors know each other. There is no plan to make use of the knowledge they have. By the same token, there is no plan to bring in all miners. There are some valleys in which every man, woman and child is being X-rayed; there are others in which nobody is being X-rayed; and there are others in which those who particularly want to be X-rayed and have an easy opportunity have been done.

If we are to overcome this dreadful problem of dust in the lungs of our miners, the only possible way in which it can be done is by having a periodic X-ray of every miner compulsorily. Then, and only then, will we be able to get the disease in the man's lungs in its early stages, when it has only infected 5 or 10 per cent., when one can say to him, "We are sorry, but you will have to go away for treatment. But you go as a comparatively sound man; you are not going up as a physical wreck, condemned to live out the rest of your days in poverty and degradation because you are no longer fit to work"—which is what has happened in the past because, in most cases, we have never caught this disease until it has been too late.

Miss Margaret Herbison (Lanarkshire, North)

I am extremely interested in the case which the hon. Gentleman is making, and I agree with much that he says. But is he suggesting that this should be made compulsory for miners, an examination which we would not make compulsory for any other section of our people?

Mr. Leather

Yes, for this reason. The miner works in a concentration of dust. Pneumoconiosis primarily affects miners, though it does affect other sections of the population, but only to a very small extent. It is a miner's disease and is inherent in the industry. We could quite easily say to every miner that as a matter of form he should have an annual medical check-up, such as many employers in other industries give to their employees. It could be once a year, every 18 months or every two years. We would tell him, "We are simply going to put you in front of an X-ray machine to see what your lungs look like. We hope and pray that the majority of you will get a clean bill of health." In that way we could catch the disease in time.

The good miner. the man who feels in his heart that there is something wrong, is the one who is determined to go on and not to go to the doctor. He fights his illness year after year, and one day he just drops in his tracks. The doctor says to him, "I am sorry, but you are finished," and that man is on the scrap heap.

There are hundreds of such people in mining villages up and down the country. The difficulties of running such a scheme are negligible. I have been told by some people who ought to know better that there is a psychological difficulty, that if a miner were told that he had to have a compulsory X-ray he would get panicky. I do not regard that as a serious difficulty. It would be perfectly simple to hand every man as he went through the X-ray unit a leaflet explaining that it was in his own interests and purely as a protective measure to see, year after year, that he was keeping fit and well.

There surely can be no argument that a regular, compulsory X-ray scheme is the only known sure method of preventing many miners from becoming physical wrecks in later years. Such examinations have been carried out in other countries for many years. There is no question about its practical benefits, because they have been proved. The technicians and the equipment are available to do it here. The only thing lacking is the drive or any sense of urgency at—and I use the phrase advisedly—official levels.

I know where my hon. Friend's heart is and where his right hon. Friend's heart is, but there has been a complete lack of any sense of urgency about this thing in the Ministry, in the Coal Board, and in the other relevant Ministries who should be concerned. Innocent men in the mines are today sowing the seeds of their own ruin in the later years of their lives. Innocent men are every day causing irreparable damage to their lungs, which will make the later years of their lives a misery. Science has the power to stop it. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power has the power to stop it, and I implore him in the name of all that is human to take what steps he can to prevent this constant tragedy in the mining industry. Let him stop it, and stop it now.

12.39 a.m.

Mr. Horace E. Holmes (Hemsworth)

I have listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Leather) very carefully, and I think that the picture he has painted is far too black. I speak from a wide experience in the mining industry. As I said the other night, it is 50 years since I first went into the pit, and in later years have played no small part in the matter of the suppression of the dust which causes these lung diseases. I pay my tribute to the vast amount of work that has been done since nationalisation, in connection with these examinations.

Mr. Leather

Does the hon. Member understand that the National Union of Mineworkers agrees with me?

Mr. Holmes

I know the views of the National Union of Mineworkers, the Ministry of Fuel and Power and the National Coal Board on this subject, and I say, as one who is in the mining industry, that I hope they will not enforce compulsory examination.

The hon. Gentleman has talked about technicians and equipment being available, and about the South-West corner of England and Scotland being almost exclusive in this matter. I say, as politely as I can, that the hon. Gentleman does not know his book. Other areas have been excluded because it was thought that lung diseases did not arise. What has happened is that diagnosis is far better than it was a few years ago. We are finding from time to time that because of this better diagnosis these things are being studied.

It would not be possible to enforce compulsory examination on all the people in the mining industry. We cannot separate Yorkshire, Lancashire and the Midlands from South Wales and Scotland. A vast amount of work is being done. It is on record that already 4,000 examinations per annum are taking place in South Wales. How often would the compulsory examinations take place? Because a man may be clear today he might not be clear in twelve months from now. The vast amount of work on this matter is extending, and gives a great deal of satisfaction to the National Union of Mineworkers. I say again that I hope compulsory examination will not be enforced, but that the Coal Board will be left to get on with the job, as they are doing now.

12.42 a.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. L. W. Joynson-Hicks)

I hope the House will forgive my rising at this moment. I do so not to cut out any hon. Gentleman who wants to make his contribution to the debate, but because there is so very much to be said on this subject. I only wish that we could have a two or three hour debate on it. I shall try to get through what I have to say as quickly as I can, so as to give other hon. Members a chance when I have finished. In case the time runs out before I can answer the exceedingly important points that my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Leather) has raised I want to make a start as quickly as possible.

We are all very grateful to him for having raised this question. It is one of the matters which arouse no party controversy. We are all in the same boat, all seeking to do our best. I know full well the great mutual interest and common object which my hon. Friend and I have with other hon. Gentlemen, in seeking to find a solution to this problem. I would also remind my hon. Friend that when he last raised this question on an Adjournment debate, the debate was concluded by my right hon. Friend who is now the Minister of Fuel and Power. with these words: I have only one plea to make tonight. Let us not wait too long in this matter; let us press on as early as we can. There is a real job to be done. That was the view of my right hon. Friend when in Opposition. I can assure the House that it is his view today, and that we are pressing on with the utmost practicable rapidity.

May I try, as briefly as possible, to say what is the situation and what is the history of this business? If one can understand the immense progress which has been made in recent years, I believe that one gets the whole story into a better perspective. I think we should recall that it was only as recently as 1935 that Dr. D'Arcy Hart went down to South Wales to investigate the problem of chest diseases in miners and began to realise that the problem might originate from coal dust.

Before that it was always assumed that it originated only from silica. Then, it was not until 1942 that that view was crystallised and confirmed and the first Regulations were introduced in 1943 to cover the condition known as pneumoconiosis. What is being done? My hon. Friend rather gave the impression that a number of people were doing things in an unco-ordinated way and rather off their own bat without very much cohesion, consultation, or knowledge of what one another were doing. I can assure him that that is not so.

First and foremost, there is the National Joint Pneumoconiosis Committee set up especially to avoid any such thing happening. But the objects of that Committee and the objects we are seeking to achieve are rather farther than the immediate objects to which my hon. Friend referred. He was referring solely to the question of immediate diagnosis of the disease. We want to go farther than that because we do not know fully what the cause of the disease is. Until one can tell the cause, one cannot be certain how to prevent the disease, let alone how to cure it.

We are advancing with the twofold object of diagnosis, with which is coupled the question of prevention, and research into the cause of the disease. May I refer briefly to some figures because that, I think, helps to see the trend of what has been happening? Between 1931 and 1943, a period of 13 years, the number of men who were diagnosed as being disabled from silicosis and pneumoconiosis in the mines was only 5,361. Of these, 4,879 came from the South-Western district, which is, practically speaking, South Wales. The first pneumoconiosis regulations came out in 1943 so, immediately, a new impetus towards diagnosis came into the picture. In the succeeding year, 1944, we had a total throughout the country of 2,001 cases diagnosed and a total in the South-Western district of 1,558.

That was the beginning of the episode of the regulations becoming more known and understood. In 1945, the South-Western numbers rose to 5,180. The figure simply rocketed up in response to the fresh approach to the problem. Then they dropped again until 1948, when there was introduced the new regulations under the Industrial Injuries Act, which conveyed benefits for disablement down to a matter of under 10 per cent. disablement. In that year, they began to rise again and 3,113 cases were diagnosed in the South-Western area and 4,348 throughout the whole country.

In 1949, the new scheme began to attract applicants for diagnosis from a wider area than South Wales and the rest of the country began to come in in much greater numbers. So that it reached its peak in 1949 with a total of 5,016 diagnosed cases of disablement throughout the whole country and only 3,774 from the South-Western area. Since then it has been falling off, and last year the number was down to 1,364 in the South-Western area, a very great reduction, and 3,509 throughout the whole country.

I mention these figures to indicate the size of the problem against the total number of 720,000 miners in the industry, because it will be exceedingly difficult to carry out the mass scheme my hon. Friend has suggested with the good will of the miners when the voluntary scheme conveying benefit of diagnosis of disablement does not result in more than the figure I have quoted at the present time.

In South Wales all new entrants into the industry are radiographically examined. There are 4,000 a year being dealt with in that way. At present they are being dealt with by miniature radiography of the regional hospital board, but for just over 50 minutes now the system has changed, because under an Order which comes into operation today the examination of these people has been transferred to the National Coal Board Medical Service. In future, they will be examined not by miniature radiography but by full size radiography. That is only the beginning of the scheme. The Coal Board are planning and expect to be able to examine radiographically every new entrant into the industry, in whatever part of the country, by 1957.

It is interesting to note that it is expected that the examinations in South Wales alone of 4,000 men a year complete with case histories and records and the necessary data to make the examination of future value will occupy the whole time of a team of professional scientists. That is the first scheme. The second scheme is one carried out by the regional hospital boards, not in respect of pneumoconiosis but generally in respect of thoracic troubles. This is the miniature radiographic scheme from which, on further examination, small numbers of pneumoconiosis subjects have been located. This has covered another 60,000 miners.

There is a third scheme now being set up and coming into operation next month by the Radiological Sub-Committee of the National Joint Pneumoconiosis Committee, which is sponsoring tests to ascertain the value of different sizes of radiographical examination. They are to give radiographic examination by three sizes of film, the 70 millimetre, the 5 inch. by 4 inch and the full size. The object of that is to determine the comparative values of X-ray films of different sizes in the diagnosis of the early changes in the chest. That will cover 8,000 people.

Then we have the working pneumoconiotics who have gone back into the mines, 8,000 of them, subject to periodical radiological examination. Then there are special purpose projects by the pneumoconiosis research unit such as the one referred to by my hon. Friend, at Rhondda Fach. There is also the industrial injuries scheme operated by the Ministry of National Insurance, whereby 50,000 X-rays have been taken and 13,150 cases have been diagnosed. It is interesting to note in this connection that in South Wales at present three-quarters of the cases diagnosed are for 10 per cent. or less disablement. On the national basis 40 per cent. are of 10 per cent. or less disablement.

Then there is the 20-pit scheme due to come into operation, which was initiated by the National Joint Pneumoconiosis Committee, financed by the Coal Board at an initial cost of £60,000 and an annual cost of £35,000. Under this scheme dust conditions will be examined regularly in addition to radiographic examination of the 20,000 miners working in these 20 pits, to try and relate the incidence of pneumoconiosis to working conditions. That is really the most important thing that can be done. This is a general attack on the problem. Everyone concerned is consulted and is agreeable to it. The Coal Board, of course, are financing it, the National Union of Mineworkers approves of it, the Pneumoconiosis Research Unit are advising on equipment, and Dr. Cochrane himself is acting, as scientific adviser to the board.

As the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Holmes) said, the question of compulsory proposals goes far beyond the possibilities of debate tonight. Such a scheme would need a great many consultations. All the compulsory schemes in coal and other mines overseas brought to my notice cover only 65,000 miners, whereas we are dealing with 720,000.

I know that my hon. Friend has been in touch with Professor Gough, the well-known and admired pathologist, but if he and Professor Gough were to discuss matters with Dr. Gilson I feel sure that they would arrive at the same conclusion as we have, that the compulsory scheme is not the best way to tackle the problem. It has to be tackled with ever increasing energy and effort on the lines I have indicated, and our proposals will be extended and advanced in the light of discoveries made. In that way we shall achieve the best results and the most satisfactory conclusions. We are determined to do all we can to stamp out this disease.

The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Two Minutes to One o'Clock, a.m.