HC Deb 03 December 1952 vol 508 cc1717-26

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Kaberry.]

10.42 p.m.

Mr. David Weitzman (Stoke Newington and Hackney, North)

I desire to draw the attention of the House to a matter of considerable concern to my constituents. I take it that the Assistant Postmaster-General will readily concede that it is the duty of the Post Office to provide proper facilities and, in so doing, to have regard to the needs of the population in each particular district. Furthermore, the hon. Gentleman should be fully aware of the needs of the area for which I plead tonight, for it is adjacent to, or very near, his own constituency; and I venture to suggest that that knowledge should make him fully aware of what I consider to be a scandalous state of affairs.

In the borough of Stoke Newington a sub-post office, known as the Browns-wood Park sub-office, which functioned for at least 38 years, was closed on 24th June, 1950. The reason given was that the occupier of the premises had notified the district postmaster that, because of the growth of private business, the sub-office could no longer be accommodated. That sub-office served an area of about 135 acres, with a population of about 8,000 people.

Since the date I have mentioned, there have been a considerable number of flats erected in the neighbourhood, and the Woodbury Down estate near there houses something like 6,000 persons. The sub-post office in the near vicinity of Riverside Road closed down in 1942, and has not since been re-opened. Thus, I suggest that this sub-office in the Brownswood Park area served a considerable residential district. During the last few years the population has been steadily increasing and the net result is that the population of a large area north of what is known as Stoke Newington Church Street has been deprived of convenient postal facilities for a long period.

The nearest post offices are nearly a mile distant. In many cases it is necessary for residents to take a bus journey and in some cases two bus journeys to get to a post office. When one remembers that visits have to be made there by pensioners, and the many uses to which post offices are put, as well as the increased fares, it will be obvious that great inconvenience, considerable hardship and much expense are caused to thousands of people.

From the date that the sub-post office was closed more than two years ago, nothing has been done to remedy the situation. I say that deliberately. Considerable correspondence passed between the Town Clerk of Stoke Newington and the district postmaster. The usual reply was that the needs of the area were being borne in mind. In November, 1951, the excuse given was that a suitable candidate for the sub-postmastership had been obtained but until he was able to secure a trained assistant it would not be possible for him to take up the appointment and to arrange for a sub-post office to be opened on the premises. One notes the excuse about the trained assistant, as if the Post Office, with its establishment, could not find a trained assistant to serve the needs of a district of this character.

I put a Question to the Minister on 20th February of this year. I was told that the intention was to re-open the premises as soon as a suitable candidate and premises could be found. I then pointed out the disparity of the information with the letter to which I have referred, and I was told that I was misinformed, although I actually had a copy of the letter of November, 1951, written to the Town Clerk, in my possession, and pointed out that fact to the Minister.

In a letter dated 2nd April I was told—another excuse—that the amount of business transacted at the sub-office was Comparatively small, and would not warrant a departure from the normal arrangements for providing a public office on an urgency basis. What "comparatively small" means I do not know. What I know is that a considerable area with a considerable population has been deprived of post office facilities, and that nothing has been done to supply them for more than two years.

I was about to raise this matter on the Adjournment in July of this year, but on the very day that it was to have been raised I was told by the Minister that arrangements had been made to re-open this office and that—to quote the Minister's words— it will be brought into service as soon as the necessary preparations have been made. Now I learn from a letter I have received, dated 31st October, that these arrangements have fallen through. The Minister says in his letter that he is sorry to say, in spite of all our efforts, we have not been able to get an office opened, mainly because Mr. Sado"— the gentleman to whom the premises belong— has been unable to get the assistant he needs to help him to run the office. We have offered him temporary assistance, but we are quite unable in the present situation to contemplate running an office with our own staff as a permanent arrangement. The matter does not stop there. The borough council suggested the provision of a mobile post office on one of the council estates. The answer was that the Post Office was unable to accept that idea. In the vicinity adjacent to these premises is a piece of land belonging to the Metropolitan Water Board. A temporary structure could be put up there.

So, it comes to this. First, the occupier of the premises, where this post office functioned for 38 years, is still ready to let it function, but we cannot get that done because the Post Office will not provide or help to provide a trained assistant. Secondly, even if these premises were not available, there is land adjoining where a temporary structure could be erected, and there is the council's idea of a mobile post office on one of the estates. There is no difficulty with regard to premises.

The difficulty here, whatever excuse is given, is that the Post Office will not provide or help to provide one trained assistant. I have been told, by way of excuse, that it is proposed to open a post office at a road called Blackstock Road. I am told it is proposed to open a post office on the Woodbury Down estate. Both ideas would offer no assistance. The sites are distant from this area and some time will elapse before it is done, anyway.

In the meantime, in this period of over two years, nothing has been done to assist in this case. I am glad to raise this matter. It is, of course, purely a constituency matter. I say the position is not good enough. I say excuses will not do. I desire to protest in the House, on behalf of thousands of people in the district, at the failure of the Post Office to do anything for this very considerable population and to remedy this grievance in any way.

Thirdly, the Post Office, with its resources, cannot say they cannot deal with this problem. I end as I began. It is the duty of the Post Office to provide facilities and it is wrong that hardship in inconvenience and expense should result because of the failure of the Post Office to deal with this matter.

10.53 p.m.

The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammons)

Let me say, straight away, that I have every sympathy with the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) in raising this matter. But I must correct his suggestion that the Post Office have not tried to do what he wants done. I think he might have told the House that what we are talking about is a sub-post office and not a Crown post office. There are, roughly, 24,000 post offices in this country, of which all but 1,700 are sub-post offices. It is in a sub-post office where the premises and the staff are provided by the sub-postmaster. We have not closed a Crown post office. We are dealing with a case, unfortunately—and here I have every sympathy with the hon. Gentleman and his constituents—of a sub-post office which has had to be closed.

It is true, as I will show, that although we propose to open an office in Black-stock Road, this will not give the Browns-wood Park people the same convenient service, which they have had in the past and which we would like to give them now. The trouble is—I think the hon. Gentleman might have said all this—that we have not been able to get anybody to take the Brownswood Park sub-post office on reasonable terms. There is nothing else standing in the way. It is not only in Brownswood Park where this has arisen. It has arisen in other parts, but it is not as bad as it was a few years ago.

Let me go over the history of this matter. There are, I believe, five shops only at Brownswood Park, and two of these shops are owned by Messrs. Sado and King. It was Mr. Sado who, until 1945, ran the sub-post office in one of the shops. In that year, he gave it up because he could not get staff. The Post Office tried for some time to find a successor to him, but the field is somewhat limited because there are only five shops there.

We failed to get anyone to take the job, but so anxious was the Post Office to help that for five solid years we kept the sub-post office on what is known in Post Office parlance as an "in-charge" basis—that is, staffed by Post Office servants—at considerable loss to the Post Office, simply because we did not want the office to close.

This arrangement continued from 1945 until 1950, when Mr. Sado terminated it by giving the Post Office "the sack," terminating the Post Office's lease of the premises. We advertised the vacancy until 1951, and in May of last year Mr. Sado and Mr. King came back into the picture and offered to take on the sub-post office again. But once more the proposal fell through because Mr. Sado said he was unable to get the staff. We are very sorry about that, but that is what always happened. It is up to the sub-postmaster to get his staff; it is not up to the Post Office to get it for him. If we had to get staff for all the 22,000 or more sub-post offices in the country my job would be much more difficult even than it is today.

The next stage was in January of this year when Mr. Sado asked whether we would continue the office on an "charge" basis. We had to say that we could not do that, because, if we did it for Mr. Sado, we should have to do it for everybody, and if we put paid Post Office staff in every sub-post office which could not get staff on its own, I do not know what our financial position would be.

In March of this year the Stoke Newington Borough Council came into the picture, writing to the Post Office to say that they were very disappointed that the Post Office could not re-open the sub-post office and that they had someone in Blackstock Road who was willing to take on the vacant sub-postmastership. In June of this year the Town Clerk submitted the name of yet another man in Blackstock Road. He used words which refute what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said. He referred to Blackstock Road, not as a far distant place which was no use to the people living on Brownswood Park, but as a busy shopping centre much used by the residents of Brownswood Park.

In July of this year Mr. Sado came into the picture yet again, saying he was willing to be appointed sub-postmaster and that he thought he could get the staff. We at once closed with that offer and appointed him sub-postmaster. However, the whole business fell through once more because Mr. Sado could not get the staff.

Why it is that Mr. Sado cannot get staff I do not know, but he seems to have been extremely unfortunate. We have gone out of our way to help him. First of all, we raised the scale payment of that office to a much higher sum than it was before. As a result of representations made to me personally by the hon. and learned Gentleman, I gave orders to the Post Office that all in our power should be done to get the office going. We did something which I do not think we have done before and which I hope we shall not be asked to do very often. We actually gave Mr. Sado the addresses of one or two people who, in our opinion, might have liked to work for him. We offered to lend him staff until he could get staff of his own.

I suggest that there is nothing more that we could have done. It is scarcely representing the facts of the case for the hon. and learned Gentleman to say that the Post Office have been cynical about the whole business. I do not believe the Post Office could have done any more than they have done. That is how the matter now stands. Quite frankly, I do not see very much chance of getting a post office in Brownswood Park unless either Mr. Sado changes his mind, or one of the other people who keep the Brownswood Park shops will take on the job. They have, of course, been approached but they are not willing.

We are not able to hold out any hope whatever of a Crown office in an area like this. Therefore, we are doing the next best thing. We are doing what the Stoke Newington Borough Council suggested—getting on with the Black-stock Road proposal. The vacancy in Blackstock Road has been advertised. We have one candidate already and we hope to have more. A sub-post office in Blackstock Road is not all the Browns-wood Park people would like, but it is not as bad as the hon. and learned Gentleman suggested. It will mean that the Brownswood Park area will have five post offices within an area of 1,200 yards.

Mr. W. R. Williams (Droylsden)

What is the annual emolument of the sub-post office which is now under consideration?

Mr. Gammans

It has been raised recently to £450. There is one at Gillespie Road about 1,000 yards away; one at Church Street, about the same distance; one at Finsbury Park about 1,100 yards; one at Newington Green about 1,175 yards; and one in Blackstock Road which is only 660 yards away.

Mr. Weitzman

Surely the hon. Gentleman appreciates, knowing this area as he must do, that it is grotesque to suggest that putting up a sub-post office in Blackstock Road will serve the needs of Brownswood Park. Is he saying that the Post Office, with all its resources cannot provide, or help to provide, a trained assistant which he knows perfectly well would solve the problem completely?

Mr. Gammans

However bad the Blackstock Road proposal is to the hon. and learned Gentleman, he is not supported by his own borough council.

Mr. Weitzman

That is not correct.

Mr. Gammans

They have written and asked that a sub-post office should be put there in default.

With regard to a trained assistant I do not know whether I have explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman the meaning of a sub-post office. It is not our business to find trained assistants at such offices. We have done everything we can to help Mr. Sado. We have kept the office going for five years. We have put him in touch with people who might be suitable, and offered to lend him someone in the meantime.

If we were dealing with a new area altogether, such as a satellite town or a big new housing estate, the present rule under which we work is that we will not establish a new office within one mile of an existing one unless there are exceptional circumstances. In this case, as I have pointed out, the Blackstock Road office is only 600 yards away. What is more, if I may remind the hon. and learned Gentleman about this, we have arranged that stamps can be bought at Brownswood Park in Messrs. Sado and King's shop.

I am sorry that I cannot give the hon. and learned Gentleman the answer he wants. I should like to help his constituents. I suggest that he has exaggerated his case. He has not realised the exact type of office that we had at Brownswood Park. I am sorry that I cannot hold out any hope of being able to open an office there in the near future. I certainly would be most grateful for any help the hon. and learned Gentleman could give to the Post Office in the effort to get someone who is prepared to open an office there. I realise that people are suffering inconvenience, but I suggest that we have done all that we possibly could to lessen that inconvenience and to provide people with some reasonable facilities.

Mr. Weitzman

Although I am indebted to the Assistant Postmaster-General for answering this debate, I should like to say that the position is thoroughly unsatisfactory. Certainly, the local council will not appreciate what the hon. Gentleman suggests has been done. Unfortunately, too much has been done merely in the way of writing letters making applications to people. I hope that the Post Office will wake up to the fact that they must look after the needs of the people in this district, which is an important part of an important area in London. I hope that the Minister will think again and see that something is done.

Adjourned accordingly at Six Minutes past Eleven o'Clock.