HC Deb 26 November 1951 vol 494 cc866-71
32. Sir Waldron Smithers

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power, in view of the criticisms made by the Lord Chief Justice at the Leeds Assizes concerning the inaccuracy of an answer given to a Parliamentary Question, if he will make a statement and say what action he proposes to take.

43. Wing Commander Eric Bullus

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if his attention has been drawn to the comments of the Lord Chief Justice regarding the inaccuracy of certain information given in this House; what inquiries he has made in the matter; and what action he has taken to ensure that information given to this House by his Department is accurate.

Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd

I am in the unusual position of replying in respect of a Parliamentary answer given in a previous Parliament by another Minister of a different Government and party.

The answer in question was given on 4th December, 1950. I have carefully examined the records, and I wish to say at once that in my opinion not the slightest question arises of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker), not having exercised all the usual care in giving information to this House.

The Question was in three parts. First, it asked the amount of the licence granted for the extension of the Yorkshire Electricity Board's Headquarters; secondly, the date of such licence; and thirdly, the amount which had, I quote, been actually spent or the value of the work done to date."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th December, 1950; Vol. 482, c. 22.] The information for the first two parts of the Question was available in his Department and was stated correctly in the reply. The information asked for in the third part of the Question relating to the amount which had "been actually spent or the value of the work done to date" was not available in his Department and had to be obtained from the Yorkshire Electricity Board. My predecessor prefaced his reply to this third part of the Question with the words, "I am informed that." He was of course referring to the information obtained by his Department from the Yorkshire Electricity Board. The information given by the Board to his Department was incorrect and that is why the answer was incorrect.

Sir W. Smithers

In view of the fact that a Minister was responsible, does the answer of my right hon. Friend mean that no disciplinary action is going to be taken against a Minister of this House, who insulted this House by giving an answer which was described by the Lord Chief Justice of England as a "downright lie," and will my right hon. Friend refer the whole matter to the Committee of Privileges?

Mr. Lloyd

No, Sir. If I may say so, that question does not arise at all. It often happens that information has to be obtained from outside bodies, whether private companies, public companies or the nationalised boards, as the basis of information given in this House, and it is usual in those circumstances for the Minister to use the phrase, "I am informed that." As a matter of fact, I do not think that in general any difficulty arises in relying on this information.

Mr. F. J. Bellenger

Will the right hon. Gentleman say explicity whether the answer given in this House came from the Board itself or was suggested to the Board by an officer of his Department, as seems to be the case in viewing the evidence at the trial?

Mr. Lloyd

I think I know to what the right hon. Gentleman is referring. There was a statement made, I think, by some witnesses that they understood the answer had been suggested in London. What happened was that the original information was asked for by the Department. On the later instructions of an assistant secretary, the principal, whose business it was, was instructed to check the answer with the Yorkshire Electricity Board. I think that it was from that that the suggestion arose somewhere during the trial that the answer had been suggested in London.

Captain Charles Waterhouse

Is it not a fact that when an hon. Member of this House puts down a Question he must make himself responsible for the facts in his Question, and is it not all the more necessary that a Minister should make sure of the facts in an answer?

Wing Commander Bullus

Has disciplinary action been taken against the official who gave the inaccurate information?

Mr. Lloyd

Later on I am answering a Question about the Board, and I think that will arise better then.

Mr. Donnelly

Is it in order for the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) to make an accusation against my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Noel-Baker).

Mr. Speaker

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Noel-Baker

It is plain that if blame rests on anybody in respect of this Question it rests fully and wholly on me. May I say that I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for saying that I took all reasonable care to obtain information which was accurate, and that I believed it to be fully accurate when I transmitted it to the House?

44. Wing Commander Bullus

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if, with a view to the restoration of public confidence in the affairs of the Yorkshire Electricity Board, he will dismiss the chairman and deputy-chairman forthwith and at the same time announce the names of the new chairman and deputy-chairman; and if he will take early steps to replace the existing board.

Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd

I propose to terminate the appointment of Colonel Lapper, the Chairman of the Yorkshire Electricity Board. Mr.Newey, the Deputy-Chairman, has tendered his resignation and is carrying on until I can make such new appointments as I may consider necessary. The part-time members of the board have asked to see me, and I do not propose to make any statement until I have seen them.

51. Mr. Anthony Marlowe

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the statement of the Lord Chief Justice of England at Leeds Assizes on 12th November last that the information provided for a Ministerial answer to this honourable House was a "downright lie"; and whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into the circumstances in which this answer came to be given to the House.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill)

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power has already inquired carefully into the circumstances and has explained the position fully to the House this afternoon. I do not myself think that further inquiries are necessary.

Mr. Marlowe

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power has made a statement which rightly acquits the former Minister of Fuel and Power, and, of course, the House readily accepts that finding, but is my right hon. Friend aware that there is very considerable public disturbance at the appearance, from the trial, that the answer was concocted somewhere between the Ministry and the Board and that there will continue to be public disturbance unless the matter is fully investigated and the facts are made known to the public?

The Prime Minister

The matter has been very fully investigated and a great many facts have been very fully made known to the public, and I am of the opinion that the matter may rest where it is.

Mr. Marlowe

Is it not the case that the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power left con- siderable obscurity as to how the original answer came to be given, and, as it is a very serious matter that this House should have been misled by an answer, will my right hon. Friend make further investigations?

Mr. James Hudson

On a point of order. As the charge of the Lord Chief Justice concerning an answer given in this House contained the statement that it was a "downright lie," would it be right for you, Mr. Speaker, to send the Lord Chief Justice the reply which has now been given so that he too may have the facts that we now accept?

The Prime Minister

I must say that there are an awful lot of things to inquire into in this country at this time, and I think this one has had a pretty good and thorough investigation. I need scarcely say that I entirely associate myself with what my right hon. Friend has said today, that in giving his answer the former Minister acted in the perfect good faith that we always associate with his character.

Mr. E. Shinwell

While I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's reluctance to hold an inquiry, is there not something to be said for acquainting the Lord Chief Justice with the facts of the situation as a result of the investigation which has taken place and in view of his statement that a Ministerial answer given in this House was a "downright lie "?

Mr. J. Hudson

May I have an answer to my point of order, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker

As to the point of order, which was a sudden one to me, the full answer given today by the Minister of Fuel and Power will, of course, be reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT and it is perfectly easy to bring it to the notice of the Lord Chief Justice or any other member of the public or any Member of either House.

Lord John Hope

Surely there is a misunderstanding on the part of the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson). There is no question of the Lord Chief Justice having said that a "lie" was told in this House, but that is what the hon. Member suggested. The Lord Chief Justice said not that the lie had been told inside this House but that it was in the Department, and that is the point. It ought not to go out that the Lord Chief Jusice said what the hon. Member has suggested.

Mr. A. C. Manuel

The Lord Chief Justice did say that.

Mr. Speaker

For my part, I do not recollect exactly what the Lord Chief Justice said, but all the facts have been made public in so far as they have been today and the whole thing has been disclosed and is on the record, and I do not think that any action by me is called for.

Mr. T. Charles Pannell

On a point of order. Before we dispose of the question, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, further to the point on which you have given your Ruling, if a copy of the transcript of all the evidence could be placed in the Library so that at least the hon. Members of this House may be clear in their minds about what took place? May I ask the Prime Minister if he will do that?

Mr. Speaker

That is a matter not for me but for the Minister.

Mr. Marlowe

As there is confusion about the matter and it is necessary to make it clear that a "downright lie" was told not by the Minister who is said to have told it but by someone else. I shall raise the matter on another occasion.