BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (Hansard, 22 March 1951)

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
I have a request from the Leader of the Opposition to be allowed to ask a question on business.

§ Mr. Churchill
I would like to ask this question on business. Last night the Leader of the House used this phrase: I think that we should be helped in dealing with these and other matters if the present clogging … of the usual channels could be removed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT 21st March, 1951; Vol. 485, c. 2565.] Can he tell us precisely what he meant by that?

§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede)
I only received notice a short while ago that a question about business—there was no conversation as to what it was—would be put to me. I received the message about six minutes to twelve o'clock.

§ Mr. Churchill
Surely the right hon. Gentleman knows what he said and why he said it?

§ Mr. Ede
I endeavour to treat the right hon. Gentleman with the utmost courtesy in the House but I sometimes find it very trying, because it is very difficult to make any statement to him without having a running commentary from him while I am making it.
Since I have held the position of Leader of the House, it has been reported to me from time to time, by way of the usual channels, that the ordinary conversations that normally take place between the two major parties in the House had, in fact, not been taking place. I am exceedingly anxious that that arrangement which deals with a lot of matters which we never discuss at Question Time, and which allows the business of the House to proceed with some comfort for all concerned, and with knowledge of what is likely to happen without going too far in disclosing what the motives and desires of parties may be, should be resumed.
I am exceedingly anxious that amicable arrangements should exist, it being understood that the political fight will be continued with the utmost vigour and determination by both sides. But it would be helpful, I think if conversations took place from time to time between my right hon. Friend the Government Chief Whip and the Opposition Chief Whip, as is usual.

§ Mr. Churchill
Let me assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is absolutely no truth in what he has said. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] There has been no change of practice by the Opposition Whips at all in the matter of discussion. They are free to continue exactly as they have done. If such an impression has been conveyed to the right hon. Gentleman, who has made himself the mouthpiece of it, it is really entirely ill-founded. My hon. Friend the Opposition Chief Whip assures me that there is not the slightest foundation for that. The usual channels are perfectly free to discuss, exactly as they always have done, matters which are within their purview. The only exception which I make is that a grave matter like the alteration——

§ Mr. Harold Davies
On a point of order. Is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) entitled to make a speech of this kind, because I am under the impression that no other right hon. or hon. Member of the House would be allowed to make a speech on this occasion?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
Debate is not permissible. I understood that the right hon. Gentleman was asking a question and a very full reply has been given. I do not know, but it may be that the right hon. Gentleman desires to ask another Question. I must say, with the utmost courtesy, that we cannot have a debate on this matter. This is a matter of question and answer on matters of business only.

§ Mr. Richard Adams
Since the usual channels are not recognised as part of the business of the House, is not the right hon. Gentleman completely out of order in raising this matter?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
I understood the right hon. Gentleman was raising a question on business.

§ Mr. Churchill
I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, in view of the assurance which I have given him that his information was incorrect and that there is no change at all on our side in the discussions of the ordinary matters of business which take place through the usual channels, if he will withdraw the statement which he has made?

§ Mr. Ede
No, Sir. I have made inquiries myself, because, as the right 2589 hon. Gentleman intimated one day this week, there are some things which should be discussed by the usual channels and reported to us.

§ Mr. Churchill
What?

§ Mr. Ede
There are some things which ought not to be discussed between the usual channels, and he said he would be pleased to receive me if I were prepared to discuss these matters further. I am very happy to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that on his side there is no objection to these ordinary conversations——

§ Mr. Churchill
Ordinary.

§ Mr. Ede
—these ordinary conversations being resumed. There was another matter which he raised the other day, when he intimated that he would not be in favour of conversations being conducted through the usual channels, but that he and I, and possibly some friends and the Liberal Party, should meet face to face. I am very happy to hear that there may have been some misunderstanding about these matters, and that there is every willingness on the part of the Opposition for discussions about business and that the arrangements shall be resumed, as was the case formerly.

§ Mr. Churchill
The right hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that large issues of policy should be settled in that way. That would be quite unusual. Am I not right in thinking that he has not suggested that?

§ Mr. Ede
Oh, no.

§ Mr. Churchill
As my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Buchan-Hepburn), in his conduct of our side of the affair, has been reflected upon, I hope that my hon. Friend may be permitted to tell the House what his view is.

§ Mr. Ede
I made no reflection on the hon. Gentleman. It would appear from the statement now made that there may have been some misunderstanding, and I want the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Buchan-Hepburn) both to understand that my right hon. Friend the Government Chief Whip will always be very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman the Member for Beckenham—the Opposition Chief Whip—to discuss those matters that are 2590 normally discussed through the usual channels.

§ Mr. Buchan-Hepburn
I do not think there is anything I wish to say except I should like to ask, on what occasion have I refused to see my colleague—as I hope I may call him—the Government Chief Whip in connection with anything to do with Government business? There may have been a misunderstanding, in which case I am extremely sorry, but I should like to know.

§ Sir Herbert Williams
Seconds out of the ring.

§ Mr. Whiteley
During the past fortnight particularly, matters have arisen which, of course, cannot be discussed in the House of Commons. They are matters of a domestic nature, which have made it nearly impossible for us to run our business in the ordinary way. As a matter of fact, there has been no intimation to me from time to time about the question of Prayers. I got it into my head, rightly or wrongly, that the Opposition were endeavouring to run the House of Commons. We cannot afford to allow late Sittings to the extent of 1.30 and 2 o'clock in the morning. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am responsible for the Orders of the Day, and I have to see at least that the people behind me are not going to be inconvenienced—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] —just for the pleasure and convenience of hon. Members opposite. If hon. Members opposite want an all-night Sitting we can have one, but it is not going to be four nights a week till 1.30 a.m. or 2 a.m. If we are going to have a late Sitting, let us have it to breakfast time in the morning. Rightly or wrongly, seeing what has happened, I made up my mind definitely that that was not going to happen in the future, and so long as I am here I am going to see that that kind of thing does not happen.

§ Mr. Churchill
Returning to the question of business, am I right in understanding that the Leader of the House was going to make some proposals of a serious character to us on this side of the House, as soon as he had had consultations with the President of the Board of Trade and others? Has that matter been clogged 2591 up, too? At any rate, we should like to know. So far, we have received no intimation of any kind and as any idea that that discussion was being clogged —if the right hon. Gentleman had it in his mind—is quite untrue, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will withdraw his accusation that the usual channels are being clogged. May I say—and for this I ask the indulgence of the House—that nothing would give me greater pain than to cause distress to one for whom I have such great respect and admiration, the Government Chief Whip.

§ Mr. Ede
I cannot withdraw the statement I made, but I am very glad to know that there appears to have been some misunderstanding. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for having raised this matter, because I now understand that the usual discussions can be resumed for the convenience of all of us.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
Order. We have had a long discussion and some of it has been irregular and out of order. Having regard to what has been said by the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition, I hope the House will now permit us to proceed with the business.

§ Mr. Iain MacLeod
On a point of order. Is it not perfectly in order for a Private Member, wherever he may sit in this House, to put a Motion on the Order Paper if he chooses, and not only not to have to inform the Government but even not to have to inform his own Front Bench?

§ Mr. Buchan-Hepburn
I asked on what occasion I had refused to discuss anything. I was referring of course, to the conduct of Government business. Each week's programme is discussed between us. If I were not to co-operate in this then it might indeed be difficult. I cannot regard Prayers as coming within that scope, as that is a question for Private Members. My right hon. Friend might easily have asked me——

§ Mr. Arthur Lewis
On a point of order. Are we all to be allowed to take part in this debate, which, I understood, was supposed to be a question on business?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
The hon. Gentleman must leave discretion in that matter to the Chair.

§ Mr. Buchan-Hepburn
Prayers are regarded as back bench matters. In the past, the Government Chief Whip has said to me, "There seem to be a great many down tonight. Would it be convenient to take this or that off?" I have sometimes suggested to my hon. Friends that they might like to put them off, but if they have refused I cannot do anything about it. I do not regard those matters as necessarily coming within the usual channels.

§ Mr. Whiteley
There are many other matters which we cannot discuss across the Floor of the House. The right hon. Gentleman and I can now discuss those matters. [An HON. MEMBER: "What matters?"] I am just telling the House that there are matters which ought not to be discussed in the House, but through the usual channels. I am prepared to discuss many things which have happened in recent days and of which the hon. Gentleman may or may not have been fully informed.

§ Mr. Buchan-Hepburn
I had received no such invitation, but I shall be very glad to discuss these things whenever the right hon. Gentleman invites me to see him. I did not know there was any official business that we had not discussed.