UTILITY PRAM RUGS ORDER (Hansard, 13 March 1951)

§ Mr. Speaker
Mr. Renton.

§ Mr. Poole (Birmingham, Perry Bar)
On a point of Order. The Motion on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) appeared there for the first time today. Seeing that the hon. Gentleman is in his place, is it not reasonable to suppose, having kept the Minister and 1487 the permanent officials here until this hour of the morning, that he might at least do us the courtesy of moving his Motion? Is there not some way in which we can protect ourselves when a Member has got the Minister and his officials here, and yet does not dare to move his Motion?

§ Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)
May I draw your attention, Sir, to the fact that the hon. Gentleman did not rise in his place, nor did he give any indication of when the Motion was to be taken. Nor did any of the other hon. Gentlemen whose names appear on the Order Paper say anything. May I suggest that the appropriate procedure would be for you to put the Question, having called the Motion.

§ Mr. Speaker
I understand the hon. Gentleman does not move his Motion. I did not call the names of the other hon. Gentlemen, but I will do so now. Mr. Charles Taylor, Mr. Colegate, Mr. Baker White, Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth.

§ Mr. Renton
I should say that I consulted the learned Clerk at the Table about half an hour ago and said to him that in view of the lateness of the hour I did not propose to move this Prayer tonight, but that I wished to move it today, meaning Wednesday. I asked the learned Clerk if it was necessary for me to rise in my place when you called the Prayer, and I was informed that it was not necessary to do so but that he would call out "this day," as in fact he did.

§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede)
I think that it is necessary that a protest should be made against the discourteous treatment which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has received. He has been here the whole of the evening waiting to answer the hon. Gentleman, and he has had no intimation at all, at any time, that it was not proposed to proceed with this Motion. I suggest that it would be in accordance with the courtesies of the House if the hon. Gentleman, when he acquainted the Clerk at the Table of his decision, had also informed my right hon. Friend or one of the Whips so that the appropriate steps could have been taken. I wish to make the strongest possible protest against this gross discourtesy.

§ Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)
May I have a Ruling on the point of order which I endeavoured to raise, which was this. This Prayer appears second on the Order Paper. You, Sir, called it a moment ago and then asked the hon. Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Renton) to speak to it, and he not having risen in his place, it is not competent for anyone else by saying "this day"—Wednesday instead of Tuesday—to defer the consideration of the Prayer. Apart altogether from that question, there is the question of courtesy to the House in the fact that the President of the Board of Trade and the Parliamentary Secretary are here to answer it. I wish to draw your attention to the fact that a great many other Members of this House, on both sides, have been here for the purpose of arguing and if necessary dividing about this Prayer. May I respectfully submit that the proper procedure would be to put this Question to the vote.

§ Mr. Renton
I do not propose to deal with the first point, because I understand it is clearly covered by the rules of order that it is competent for any member to notify the Table of the withdrawal of a Motion or of its postponement. With regard to the suggestion of discourtesy on my part, may I say sincerely that no discourtesy was intended, but I do nevertheless wish to apologise to the President of the Board of Trade and to his Parliamentary Secretary, who I understood would probably be answering the Prayer, but I did not happen to see him. I did not know that the President of the Board of Trade would be intervening in this debate at all because the Order against which I am praying is in fact signed by the Parliamentary Secretary. I regret any inconvenience I may have caused to the right hon. Gentleman. [An HON. MEMBER: "Thank you very much."] We must at this time of night be tolerant. The reason why I overlooked it was not due to any discourtesy, but simply because, being as tired as I dare say most hon. Members are, I forgot to do anything about it.

§ Mr. Speaker
Perhaps I might answer the point of order. It is correct that it is within the rules, unless we amend them, that an hon. Member is entitled to give notice that he does not propose to pray against an Order. One can make objec- 1489 tions if one wants to; but it is within the rules.

§ Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas (The Wrekin)
If an hon. Member puts down a Prayer in association with other hon. Members and he comes to a decision not to proceed with it on the day for which it has been put down, is it not expected that the hon. Member should give you, Mr. Speaker, notice at the commencement of these proceedings on the Prayers instead of waiting until the Prayer is reached, to the inconvenience, not only of the Minister and the House, but of you, Mr. Speaker?

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not a point of order. As far as I am concerned the rules are there and I have to obey them. They may be inconvenient, but there they are and I have to obey—I cannot alter them.

§ Mr. Poole
I understand that although the Minister had 12 hours' notice of this Prayer and it has been withdrawn, it has now been put down for Wednesday. May I ask whether the Minister and the House are compelled to take this Prayer on Wednesday, even though it be extremely inconvenient to the Department concerned, or whether the Government have powers of discretion as to when these Prayers shall be debated?

§ Mr. Ungoed-Thomas (Leicester, North-East)
Is there any limit to the amount of time that this cat-and-mouse game can be played?

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member has asked whether any latitude can be given as to whether a Prayer should be put down on one day or another. That is an awkward question. My impression is that one puts down a Prayer for a certain night, but the Government have charge of business, and if that is an inconvenient night I believe they have the power to say, "We cannot give you tomorrow. We will give you the day after." [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] I am not sure, but I think it is in the power of the Government to select the day.

§ Mr. Lennox-Boyd (Mid-Bedfordshire)
With respect, Mr. Speaker, as you know, Prayers have to be put down within 40 days of the promulgation of an order, and if it were the case that the Government could postpone consideration, it would be open to the Government to 1490 postpone it until after the 40 days had elapsed.

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not my point at all. I am assuming that there are 40 or 30 or even 20 days, and I should have thought that in that time—I am not clear about this—the Government might say "There are 20 days left. Tomorrow is not convenient, but the day after will be," and they would have some right to suggest what day would be convenient. To tell the honest truth, I am not clear; I do not want to make a Ruling, but that is my impression.

§ Mr. Lennox-Boyd
Would you be prepared, Mr. Speaker, perhaps this afternoon, to give some indication to the House of what the procedure is, because this raises a very important House of Commons issue—important to both sides of the House—and it would be convenient to all of us to know exactly how the matter stands. Would you be ready to give an answer this afternoon?

§ Mr. Speaker
I am not clear, but I thought that some latitude could be given in the way I have indicated. If not, I will find out in due course.

§ Mr. Renton
Arising out of the suggestion that this Prayer might be postponed, may I say that, speaking for myself, I had hardly dared to hope that the President of the Board of Trade himself would come and answer this Prayer. It gives the Prayer perhaps a greater importance than ever I anticipated, and I should be content if it is convenient to the right hon. Gentleman, that his Parliamentary Secretary should be here tonight instead.

§ Mr. Speaker
We had better get on with the next Prayer.