HC Deb 20 June 1951 vol 489 cc502-6
30. Captain Ryder

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty when it is proposed holding an inquiry into the loss of His Majesty's Submarine "Affray"; and what form that inquiry will take.

38. Commander Maitland

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the recent discovery of H.M.S. "Affray" has thrown any light on the reason for the disaster; and if he will make a further statement.

39. Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennett

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he has any further information in regard to H.M. Submarine "Affray."

The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. James Callaghan)

I would refer the hon. and gallant Members to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas) on 18th June.

Captain Ryder

Does it not appear from the meagre evidence which is available that the design of the Snort apparatus is under some doubt? Should it not be a cardinal feature of this instrument that it should break off when under undue stress at some point which will not lead to the scuppering of the ship? Will the hon. Gentleman say whether investigations to this end in other submarines in the Service are being made?

Mr. Callaghan

Everything is in doubt for the moment, the Snort apparatus not more so than anything else. I think it would be quite possible to advance alternative reasons for the gash which has been found in the Snort apparatus and I should not like to come to a conclusion about it until the Naval Board of Inquiry has examined further evidence.

Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennett

May I take the opportunity on this first occasion of expressing the gratitude and admiration of myself and of other hon. Members for the determination and bravery with which the search has been carried out? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]

I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman three questions which I hope will not be considered sub judice. First, in a submarine such as this, in the event of damage to the Snort apparatus of a kind which makes it admit water instead of air, can the right hon. Gentleman say how many seconds would elapse before the diesels had drawn out so much of the submarine's air as to reduce the pressure until the men lost consciousness? Does not this occur in 10 to 15 seconds?

Secondly, is it likely that, once it had begun to lose buoyancy, the submarine could have gone into a long uncontrolled glide which could have taken it so very far from the area where it was originally expected to appear? Thirdly, can the hon. Gentleman say whether or not the submarine's radar mast was extended?

Mr. Callaghan

The whole of the searching forces will be glad to hear what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said with the assent of the House. I think that the finding of the submarine was a most remarkable feat considering the conditions in which the search had to be conducted.

The answer to his first supplementary question is that the air would certainly not be exhausted within such a short period of time that it would be impossible to switch off the motors. There is a great deal of technical evidence about this into which I do not wish to go. His second and third supplementary questions are matters of judgment rather than of fact, and it would be advisable to postpone theorising about them until we have heard what the Board of Inquiry has to say.

44. Sir I. Fraser

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will make a statement about the salvage of the submarine "Affray."

Mr. Callaghan

Not yet, Sir. When diving is resumed on 25th June, the main purpose will be to find out more about the condition of the submarine in order to determine, if possible, the cause of the disaster. The question of salvage which would require a major effort extending over many months, will be determined later.

Sir I. Fraser

As the question of whether to salvage the vessel will depend upon an opinion as to the technical difficulty and upon the cost, will the hon. Gentleman assure us that the Admiralty would regard almost any technical difficulty and almost any cost as worth while to elucidate this mystery?

Mr. Callaghan

Let us take the matter a step at a time. The first thing, which we have not yet exhausted by any means, is to find out the cause. If we can do so as the vessel now lies, so much the better.

Mr. Churchill

Apart from these extremely important moral and scientific issues, what is the actual cost of a submarine of this type?

Mr. Callaghan

In round figures, I would say £1 million.

Mr. Churchill

So that a certain amount of expense would be justified merely from that point of view of endeavouring to recover it?

Mr. Callaghan

The right hon. Gentleman will know better than I that a number of things have to be weighed against that. The effort that would have to be put into a job of salving a submarine from this depth would divert training, and a number of other efforts which would be involved are also factors to be borne in mind. No decision has been reached yet, but I think one is at least entitled to put these facts into the balance if we are to consider the bare arithmetic of the matter.

Mr. Churchill

If the "Affray" were salvaged, apart from all other considerations, it could very quickly be made ready for service again, and that, as the hon. Gentleman said, would replace a vessel which would otherwise cost £1 million. I should have thought myself that it was a little more than £1 million.

Mr. Callaghan

That may well be so—I have not looked it up. I fully agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but all these things have to be taken into account. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that when the decision is made, it will not have been made except on the basis of what is best for the Service as a whole.

Mr. Churchill

I am not so sure. Would it not be a great feather in the cap of the Admiralty if they achieved the great process of salving this vessel?

Mr. Callaghan

Yes, it would be something that had never before been done in tidal waters of this sort in the history of submarine salvage. I am all for getting feathers in one's cap, but we have to make a realistic appreciation of these matters, and that is what the Admiralty will do.

Surgeon Lieut.-Commander Bennett

Will the Admiralty expedite their decision in order that the salvage work, if it is decided upon, shall be taken as far as possible before the weather breaks up for the winter?

Mr. Callaghan

The first advice, I gather, is that there is very little prospect indeed that we would be able to raise the submarine before the autumn storms.