HC Deb 13 June 1951 vol 488 cc2302-5
50. Brigadier Head

asked the Minister of Defence which of the Dominions has agreed to change over to the.280 rifle.

Mr. Shinwell

The question is now under consideration by the various Commonwealth Governments.

Brigadier Head

Is it not already a fact that the Dominion of Canada is retaining the same calibre as the United States? Will not this have a most unfortunate effect on unity in Imperial defence, and does it not mean that, in future, Canadian formations will have to fight shoulder to shoulder with American rather than British formations?

Mr. Shinwell

It may be regarded as regrettable that Canada has decided to adopt the United States weapon, which, of course, has been in existence for a long time, but I hardly think it can be said that this will disrupt unity in Imperial defence.

Mr. Churchill

Is it not a fact that to re-equip the British Army with the.280 will take a matter of 10 years or so? During all that time we shall have cut ourselves out of the opportunity of adopting a weapon which is being adopted by the United States and Canada, essential to any good system of defence, and besides that we have the great disadvantage not only of being isolated but of having a dual armament in our own forces.

Mr. Shinwell

It is not very long since the right hon. Gentleman himself said that the existing rifle, the.303, was a very good one and that we saved our lives with it. We shall continue with that rifle until the other rifle is ready. Of course, it may take 10 years before the British Army is fully equipped with the new rifle, but we shall gradually equip it, and meanwhile, we shall use the other rifle, which the right hon. Gentleman himself said is a very good one.

Mr. Churchill

I am very glad to have the assurance that the jigs and gauges by which the.303 is made are not to be taken away and dispersed and that the mass production of the.303 to keep our Army properly equipped is to be provided. If I could have that assurance it would greatly affect my point of view. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us that assurance?

Mr. Shinwell

Yes, we are not producing large numbers of the old rifle at present because we have very large numbers of them available. Of course, we shall continue in production if more rifles are required. We do not intend to do away with the present machinery for that purpose. However, I must remind the right hon. Gentleman and tell the House that we must have the very best weapons for the British Army, and that is our intention.

Mr. Churchill

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider in his study of this matter of the best that, while it is no doubt right to have the best weapons, the best includes also those which enable us to work with other members of the Commonwealth and with other countries with whom we are allied, as well as actual improvement in the rapidity of fire, etcetera?

Mr. Shinwell

It must not be assumed that other Commonwealth countries are disinclined to use the rifle that is now being adopted by the British Army. The matter, in fact, will, I think, be discussed at the forthcoming Commonwealth Defence Conference.

Mr. Churchill

I am glad to hear that it will be discussed at the Commonwealth Conference, but are we to understand that this is not a decision of the British Government that is a foregone conclusion, and that they will be influenced by the discussions that take place there?

Mr. Shinwell

As regards the acceptance of this rifle, which is regarded on all hands, even in the United States, as militarily acceptable, we have made up our minds to produce the rifle as soon as we can find it possible to do so.

Mr. Churchill rose

—

Hon. Members

Oh.

Mr. Churchill

Are we to go on producing the necessary numbers of our own existing pattern, and, at this time of great pressure in re-armament, to make a great effort to produce this entirely new and isolated type of weapon?

Mr. Shinwell

Surely the same argument could be adduced against the production of other new weapons. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to live in the past, but we have to look to the future.

Mr. Henry Hopkinson

Is the Minister aware that the only item of common use among the Allies in Korea at this present time is petrol, and, having regard to the great disadvantages which have been caused in Korea through this lack of standardisation, will he re-examine this whole question of the supply of a rifle for the use of our Commonwealth partners and our Allies?

Mr. Shinwell

As regards the principle of standardisation, I am wholly in agreement. Obviously, we all desire standardisation; but I must tell hon. Members that standardisation can be achieved only if all the parties concerned are in agreement, and if some of the parties are disagreeable, obviously we cannot promote standardisation.

Mr. Duncan Sandys

Does the Minister of Defence not realise that the choice of an entirely new calibre for the new weapon—I am not talking about the new weapon but of the new calibre—has the effect of giving the worst possible lead to all nations—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—in this sphere of standardisation? Whilst the.280 may be ballistically a very excellent calibre, does he not feel that the practical disadvantages of having a different calibre from our Allies, and having two calibres in our own Army, outweigh the technical advantages?

Mr. Shinwell

Well, I must confess that I am not so technically well equipped as the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—but if I have to choose between the right hon. Gentleman and my military advisers at the War Office in this matter, I shall choose my military advisers.