HC Deb 30 July 1951 vol 491 cc1119-23

Lords Amendment: In page 9, line 7, leave out from "shall" to end of line 22 and insert: without the consent of the river board (which consent shall not be unreasonably withheld) bring into use any new or altered outlet for the discharge of trade or sewage effluent to a stream or begin to make any new discharge of trade or sewage effluent to a stream. ( ) On an application for consent under the foregoing subsection the river board may grant their consent subject to such conditions as they may reasonably impose, being—

  1. (a) in the case of a new or altered outlet, conditions as to the point of discharge into the stream or the construction of the outlet, or as to the use of that outlet or any other outlet for trade or sewage effluent from the same land or premises; and
  2. (b) in the case of a new discharge, conditions as to the nature and composition, temperature, volume or rate of discharge of effluent from the land or premises from which the new discharge is to be made.
( ) A river board shall not grant their consent to the bringing into use of a new or altered outlet unless the outlet is so constructed as to comply with any conditions reasonably imposed by the board to enable them to exercise their right to take samples of the effluent.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Mr. Lindgren.]

Mr. Philips Price

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, in line 7, after "may," to insert: require the submission for their reasonable approval of plans, sections and specifications of the new or altered outlet, or full particulars of the new discharge, as the case may he, and may. I move this Amendment purely for the purpose of getting an explanation from my hon. Friend. I agree that the Lords Amendment would greatly improve the Bill. It lays down that the consent of the river board must be obtained for new discharges but it leaves out something which I should like to see inserted. The Bill, before it went to another place, contained the words: or made available for their inspection at all reasonable times at a place specified in the notice, plans and specifications of the new or altered outlet. Those words were left out of the Lords Amendment, and my object in moving my Amendment is to find out why they were left out, as it would be of great use to the river boards to be able to call for plans and specifications of new outlets.

Mr. Anthony Greenwood (Rossendale)

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. Lindgren

The Amendment which has reached us from another place is the first of a series which give effect to an undertaking which my right hon. Friend gave on the Report stage on the "best practical means," and these Amendments recast Clause 7. They provide that no new outlet shall be made or new discharge shall commence without the prior consent of the river board, and the river board may attach conditions or withhold that consent. If there is any dispute as to the actions of the river boards, the aggrieved parties may apply to the Minister to determine whether the board has acted unreasonably.

11.45 p.m.

My hon. Friend has called attention to the fact that in the Bill originally there was a requirement for certain plans and so forth to be made available. That is unnecessary in the Clause as it is now drafted because the Clause gives the board permission to refuse or withhold consent and to make conditions in regard to consent. In order that they perform their functions of considering conditions, the board must be given all the facilities they require in regard to plans and details of the scheme. This means that, under Clause 7 as redrafted, the powers of the river boards in regard to withholding consent or attaching conditions are much larger than before, and that is in accordance with the general wish to the House expressed during the Committee stage.

The Amendment which the hon. Gentleman has now moved is unnecessary. I hope he will withdraw it and that the House will give us this series of Amendments which give the river boards this additional power.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Lords Amendment," put, and negatived.

Question again proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Mr. Nugent (Guildford)

Before we leave this Amendment, I feel I should say a word on it. After all, this Amendment and the next six are to put a great deal more power in the hands of the river boards than they had before, on the lines just described by the Parliamentary Secretary. I am sure it was a momentary omission that he did not pay tribute to our side in seeing that the provision is in the Bill. It will be within his recollection that his right hon. Friend, on the Report stage, agreed to the third Amendment on the Lords' list without any such qualification as this, and if, in fact, the matter had rested there, the very valuable new powers might never have appeared in the Bill at all.

It was because the House expressed itself very strongly that to open the door to bad new discharges in the way suggested would have injured the whole effect of the Bill, that the Minister finally undertook, if all the Amendments were withdrawn, that he would reconsider the matter to see whether we could get some agreed basis. What, in effect, the other place have done is to produce in a very admirable form the basis upon which the Minister managed to get all sides to agree. I feel certainly that the Parliamentary Secretary would be glad to pay tribute to the labours put forth from this side to achieve that desirable end, and I feel sure the outcome will be successful.

Mr. Anthony Greenwood rose—

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member has lost his right to talk on this Lords Amendment by seconding the Amendment to it.

Mr. Lionel Heald (Chertsey)

I feel that credit should be given to everyone concerned in this matter, and there is one right hon. Gentleman who has not been mentioned. That is the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), because it was a remarkable thing on the last occasion that he approved of and agreed with something I said and I agreed with him. This is a very important series of Amendments which, in the view of all concerned, strengthen this Bill very materially. I believe they will be very valuable.

It may be, as we now find ourselves in agreement with each other and with the Minister of Local Government and Planning, that this has been found to be the only way. Many of us will remember seeing a famous play with Sir John Martin-Harvey called "The Only Way", and his great line in that play was: "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done.' [Interruption.] I do not know whether that is the basis of the choice of the title for a certain pamphlet, but it is certainly very appropriate to this Amendment.

Mr. Speaker

I should like to say that I was in error with the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood). He had not spoken to the Question that I put; he had merely spoken to the Amendment, and therefore he has his right to speak.

Mr. Anthony Greenwood

Thank you, Sir. I only wanted to say that one of the most gratifying features of the debates in Committee was the complete lack of party bias. I regret that the hon. Member has attempted to derive party capital at this late stage, and I want to express my sympathy with him that ony 12 Members of his party should be present to hear him.

Question put, and agreed to.