§ Sir Herbert Williams (Croydon, East)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Statutory Instruments Act, 1946, in order to render subject to Parliamentary control statutory instruments presented to Parliament which are neither subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament nor required to be approved or confirmed by Parliament.As hon. Members who have their Order Paper will see, the title "Statutory Instruments (Parliamentary Control)" adequately describes the purpose of the Bill which I seek leave to introduce. I believe that in 1946 the Select Committee on Procedure considered, amongst other things, the position with regard to delegated legislation and recommended that there should be a full examination, I think by the Joint Select Committee of both Houses. That I cannot achieve today, but I mention it in passing.Every one of us realises that a measure of delegated legislation is necessary. It has been going on for at least 400 years and different Parliaments, different Governments, have adopted different procedures with regard to delegated legislation, with the result that the whole position is in a state of great confusion. The object of my Bill is to diminish that confusion to a small extent. I am not attempting to deal with the whole subject, because I think that is a matter which would have to be handled by a Government with the full responsibility of government.
I am merely trying to provide that when an order is presented to Parliament, Parliament shall be entitled to discuss it. At present a number so introduced are not debatable, which I think is quite absurd. Every one of us realises that the 1292 essential method of the Fascists, Nazis and Communists is legislation by decree. I think legislation by decree is an evil thing unless there is some Parliamentary control over the decree. As a matter of fact, nearly half the orders which are published by the Stationery Office are not debatable.
I think the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council was largely responsible—I was not in the House at the time—for the Statutory Instruments Act of 1946 which, I frankly recognise, improved the position by comparison with that existing under the Act which it replaced—the Act of 1893, although for the moment I have forgotten its Title. But the position remains unsatisfactory. I have had an interesting experience in the last 10 years in that I have looked at—I will not say studied—every Statutory Instrument which has been published —somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000. I have, therefore, acquired a certain amount of knowledge and experience about them. The right hon. Gentleman is aware of the activities during the wartime Parliament of the group with which I was then connected—and with which I am still connected—to try to improve the position. It has been improved in many ways, but it still remains somewhat unsatisfactory.
I want to quote to the House one or two examples. They are all selected from the last few weeks. The other day an order was published controlling the export of goods—a very important matter: and on that we cannot have a Prayer. But just about the same time an order was published about the control of exchange payments. Both orders fall in the same category, yet we can have a Prayer about the latter order. An order was published about teachers' superannuation rules. It merely affects their conditions of service, and about that we cannot have a Prayer. Yet the order on Fire Services (Ranks and Conditions of Service) is prayable—but both belong to orders dealing with people's remuneration. I turn to the topical subject of quilts, the price of which is controlled by Order No. 89, which I find is prayable. But the price of commodities depends largely upon the remuneration of those who produce them, and when I turn to a Wages Council Order I find that that cannot be discussed in the House. This shows complete inconsistency.
1293 Tomorrow we are to discuss an order about the Transfer of Functions of Ministries of the Crown. That is an important constitutional issue, for we are re-arranging the duties of certain Ministers, and that order is prayable. The other day, however, an Order in Council was approved by His Majesty, no doubt on the initiative of the Air Ministry, which changes the composition of the Air Council. The composition of the Air Council—and I am not talking of the personnel—may be a matter of substantial constitutional significance, but we can do nothing about it. We can discuss the transfer of functions of the Ministry of Health, but we cannot discuss the Air Council.
If I happened to be an Ulster man, I could pray about the stopping of a highway at Kirkistown. That is prayable. But if I want to pray about stopping a highway in Hertfordshire, I cannot do so, because that is in England. The position is in a state of absolute and complete confusion. The Minister of Transport does not want people to travel over the Mill-wall Clock Spring Bridge at more than five miles per hour. That may be a very good thing, and we can pray about that. If he wants to stop up a highway in Glamorganshire we cannot pray about it. When he wants to prescribe a London street and turn it into a one-way street, we can have a Prayer about that. The whole thing is so inconsistent and absurd that the time has come for the question to be investigated. My Bill merely seeks to cover one small part—the least controversial part—namely, that when an order is formally laid on the Table we should be entitled to take Parliamentary action by having a Prayer about it.
§ Mr. Ungoed-Thomas (Leicester, North-East)I want to oppose this Bill. It is very easy for the hon. Member for Croydon, East (Sir H. Williams), to produce certain instances and, by reference to them, to attempt to justify a sweeping Measure of this kind. May I concede to him at once that there are border-line cases in which it may be desirable that his Bill should apply. But it is impossible to come to a conclusion about his Bill on the speech he has made today.
As every hon. Member knows, there are four categories of Statutory Instruments. There are those which are subject to an affirmative Resolution: there are 1294 those which are subject to a negative Resolution: there are those which have to be laid before the House: and there is a fourth category which does not have to be laid before the House. What the hon. Member's Bill proposes by a quite haphazard, hit-or-miss method, is to take Orders out of the third category, to abolish it, and to include them in the second category. His Bill does nothing with the fourth category nor does it affect the position of the first two categories.
Why have we these categories at all, and why have we the proposal to abolish the third category? We have these categories, as every hon. Member knows perfectly well, because there are Statutory Instruments of varying degrees of importance. It may be desirable in one case to make the order subject to an affirmative Resolution of the House before it comes into operation, while in another case the order may be of such little significance that there is no point even in laying it before Parliament at all.
§ Mr. C. S. Taylor (Eastbourne)Who decides?
§ Mr. Ungoed-ThomasParliament itself decides. The difference between a Parliamentary decision by the present method and a Parliamentary decision by the method proposed by the hon. Member for Croydon, East, is this: that Parliament now decides into which category a Statutory Instrument shall fall when it is considering the Bill which authorises that Statutory Instrument. In other words, Parliament now considers each individual case on its merits by debate in this House, when the House is fully seized of all the facts which relate to the Statutory Instrument.
What the hon. Member for Croydon, East, proposes is not that at all. What he proposes is a "steam-rollering" by which he says that every single Statutory Instrument which Parliament in its wisdom has decided in the past should be subject to one form of procedure or another, shall, if it falls within a particular category of procedure—the third category—be removed from that category altogether and come within the second category. That is an utterly unreasonable proposal.
May I give two examples of the effect the hon. Member's proposal would have? I shall give cases of Statutory Instruments which fall within the third category which 1295 he seeks to abolish—instruments which he proposes should be subject to a negative Resolution. First, there are orders made under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1932, declaring that a foreign Government has ratified a load-line Convention—a purely explanatory provision. It would be absurd and thoroughly nugatory to make that subject to a negative Resolution of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because if the House passes a negative Resolution it seeks to make of no force a declaration by a foreign Government. That is why. It ought to be perfectly obvious to hon. Members.
The next instance is that of a declaration that there is an area infected with foot and mouth disease. From that certain automatic statutory results follow, but the declaration, the order declaring that foot and mouth disease exists in a certain area, cannot be altered by a negative Resolution of this House. It would be ridiculous if it could be. It is not appropriate that the House should be responsible for deciding whether foot and mouth disease has broken out in a place.
There was an earlier Bill brought forward in 1949 by the hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Sir W. Wakefield). That Bill, more moderately, provided for large categories of exceptions. The hon. Member for Croydon, East has no patience
§ with categories of exceptions. He would ride rough-shod over everything. The diffe5rence between the Bill of the hon. Member for St. Marylebone and the Bill of the hon. Member for Croydon, East is the difference between the hon. Member for St. Marylebone and the hon. Member for Croydon, East. We are here, in fact, on the lunatic fringe of the Conservative Party. [Interruption.] I am glad to have the approbation of so many hon. Members opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]
§ The third category of orders can already be subject to investigation by Questions to Ministers. It can be subject to investigation on Motions for the Adjournment. The difference is, of course, that those means of inquiry in the House are not exempted business. I suggest that this Measure is sought to be brought before the House in order to increase the amount of exempted business which can be dealt with in the House. [Laughter.] Certainly. To increase exempted business in cases like these that I have quoted is quite unnecessary. It is to impose on Parliament business which it is quite unnecessary to impose on Parliament. It is merely throwing a spanner into the works.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 192: Noes, 248.
1299| Division No. 39.] | AYES | [3.44 p.m. |
| Alport, C. J. M. | Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C | Grimston, Hon J (St. Albans) |
| Amery, J. (Preston, N.) | Crouch, R. F. | Grimston, R V (Westbury) |
| Amory, D. Heathcoal (Tiverion) | Crowder, Capt. John F E. (Finchley) | Harden, J. R. E. |
| Arbuthnot, John | Crowder, F. P. (Rulslip—Northwood) | Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W) | Cundiff, F. W. | Harris, R. R. (Heston) |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Cuthbert, W. N. | Harvey, Air -Codre. A. V. (Maeclasfield) |
| Banks, Col. C. | Davies, Nigel (Epping) | Hay, John |
| Baxter, A. B. | de Chair, S. | Heald, L. F. |
| Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. | De la Bére, R. | Heath, E. R. |
| Bennett, Sir P. (Edgbaston) | Deedes, W. F. | Henderson, John (Cathcart) |
| Bennett, R. F. B. (Gosport) | Digby, S. Wingfield | Hicks-Beach, Maj. W W |
| Bennett, W. G. (Woodside) | Donner, P. W. | Higgs, J. M. C. |
| Birch, Nigel | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord M | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) |
| Bower, N. | Drayson, G. B. | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A | Drewe, C. | Hirst, Geoffrey |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Duncan, Capt. J. A. L | Hollis, M. C. |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr J G | Dunglass, Lord | Hope, Lord J. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col W | Duthie W. S. | Hopkinson, H L. D'A |
| Brooke, H. (Hampstead) | Eden, Rt. Hon. A | Hornsby-Smith, Miss P. |
| Browne, J. N. (Govan) | Erroll, F. J. | Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T | Fletcher, W. (Bury) | Howard, G. R. (St. Ives) |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Fraser, Hon. H. C. P. (Stone) | Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) |
| Bullus, Wing Commander E. E | Fraser, Sir I. (Morecambe & Lonsdale) | Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S (Southport) |
| Burden, Squadron Leader F. A. | Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) | Hudson, W. R (Hull. N.) |
| Butoher, H. W. | Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) | Hurd, A. R. |
| Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n) | Gammans, L. D. | Hutchinson, Geoffrey (Ilford, N.) |
| Carr, Robert (Mitcham) | Garner-Evans, E. H. (Denbigh) | Hutchison, Lt.-Com Clark (E'b'rgh W.) |
| Ch[...]ehill, Rt. Hon. W S | Gomme-Duncan, Col. A | Hutchison, Col. J. R. H (Scotstoun) |
| Clyde, J. L. | Gridley, Sir A. | Hyde, Lt.-Col H. M |
| Conant, Maj. R. J E | Grimond, J | Hylton-Foster. H B |
| Jeffreys, General Sir G | Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury) | Snadden, W McN. |
| Jennings, R. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) | Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.) |
| Jones, A. (Hall Green) | Mott-Radolyffe, C. E | Spens, Sir P (Kensington, S.) |
| Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L W | Nabarro, G. | Stanley, Capt. Hon. R. (N. Fylde) |
| Kaberry, D | Nicholls, H. | Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) |
| Keeling, E. H. | Nicholson, G. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge) | Noble, Comdr. A. H P | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. |
| Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Nugent, G. R. H. | Storey, S. |
| Langford-Holt, J. | Nutting, Anthony | Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) |
| Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H | Oakshott, H. D | Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray) |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T | Odey, G. W. | Studholme, H. G. |
| Lindsay, Martin | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. | Summers, G. S. |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton) | Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) | Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.) |
| Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) | Osborne, C. | Teevan, L. T. |
| Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. | Peake, Rt. Hon. O. | Thorneycroft, G. E P. (Monmouth) |
| Longden, G. J. M. (Herts. S. W.) | Pato, Brig. C. H. M | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. |
| Law, A. R. W. | Pickthorn, K. | Turton, R. H. |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O | Vane, W. M. F. |
| MoAtdden, S. J. | Profumo, J. D. | Vaughan-Morgan, J K. |
| MeCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. | Raiket, H. V. | Vosper, D. F. |
| Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) | Rayner, Brig. R | Wade, D. W. |
| Mackeson, Brig. H. R | Redmayne, M. | Wakefield, E. B. (Derbyshire, W.) |
| McKibbin, A. | Ronton, D. L. M. | Walker-Smith, D. C. |
| Maclay, Hon. J. S. | Robson-Brown, W. (Esher) | Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) |
| Watkinson, H. | ||
| Maclean, F. H. R. | Roper, Sir H. | Wheatley, Major M. J. (Poole) |
| MacLeod, Iain {Enfield, W.) | Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry) | Williams, C. (Torquay) |
| Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) | Russell, R. S. | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridga) |
| Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) | Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. | Wills, G. |
| Maitland, Comdr. J. W. | Sandys, Rt. Hon. D | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Marlowe, A. A H. | Savory, Prof. D. L. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Maude, A. E U (Ealing, S.) | Shepherd, W. S. (Cheadle) | York, C. |
| Maudling, R. | Smith, E. Martin (Grantham) | |
| Medlicott, Brigadier F. | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Molson, A H. E. | Smithers, Sir W. (Orpington) | Sir Herbert Williams and |
| Morris, R. Hopkin (Carmarthen) | Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) | Mr. C. S. Taylor. |
| NOES | ||
| Aeland, Sir Richard | Crossman, R. H. S | Haire, John E. (Wycombe) |
| Albu, A. H. | Collen, Mrs. A | Hale, J. (Rochdale) |
| Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) | Daines, P. | Hall, J. (Gateshead, W.) |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Darling, G. (Hillsboro') | Hall, Rt. Hn. W Glenvil (Colne V'll'y) |
| Awbery, S. S. | Davies, A. Edward (Sioke, N.) | Hamilton, W W. |
| Ayles, W. H. | Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) | Hannan, W. |
| Bacon; Miss A | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Hardman, D. R. |
| Balfour, A. | Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Hardy, E. A. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon A. J. | Deer, G. | Hargreaves, A |
| Hartley, P | Delargy, H. J | Harrison, J. |
| Bonn, Hon A N. Wedgwood | Dodds, N. N. | Hastings, Dr. Somervine |
| Benson, G. | Donnelly, D. | Hayman, F. H. |
| Beswick, F. | Driberg, T. E. N. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (Rowley Regis) |
| Bing, G H C. | Dye, S. | Herbison, Miss M. |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Ede, Rt. Hon J C. | Hewitson, Capt. M. |
| Blyton, W. R. | Edwards, John (Brighouse) | Hobson, C. R. |
| Boardman, H | Edwards, Rt. Hon. N (Caerphilly) | Holman, P. |
| Booth, A. | Edwarde, W J. (Stepney) | Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) |
| Bottomley, A. G | Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) | Houghton, Douglas |
| Bowden, H. W. | Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) | Hoy, J. |
| Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) | Ewart, R. | Hubbard, T. |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Fernyhough, E. | Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, N.) |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Field, Capt. W. J | Hughes, Emrys (S Ayr) |
| Brook, D. (Halifax) | Finch, H. J | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Brooks, T J (Normanton) | Fletcher, E G. M. (Islington, E) | Hynd, H. (Accrington) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D D. | Follick, M. | Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) |
| Brown, George (Belper) | Foot, M. M. | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) |
| Brown, T J. (Ince) | Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) | |
| Burke, W. A. | Forman, J. C. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. |
| Burton, Miss E. | Fraser, T. (Hamilton) | Jay, D. P. T |
| Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.) | Freeman, J. (Watford) | Jeger, G. (Goole) |
| Callaghan, James | Freeman, Peter (Newport) | Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras. S.) |
| Carmichael, James | Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H T N | Jenkins, R. H. |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A | Ganley, Mrs. C. S | Johnson, James (Rugby) |
| Champion, A. J. | Gibson, C. W. | Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) |
| Chetwynd, G. R | Gilzean, A. | Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool) |
| Clunie, J. | Glanville, J. E. (Conselt) | Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham. S.) |
| Cocks, F S. | Gooch, E. G. | Jones, William Elwyn (Conway) |
| Coldrick, W. | Greenwood, Anthony W J. (Rossendale) | Keenan, W. |
| Collindridge, F | Greenwood, Rt. Hon Arthur (Wakefield) | Kenyon, C. |
| Cook, T. F. | Grenfell, D. R | Key, Rt. Hon C W |
| Cooper, G. (Middlesbrough, W.) | Grey, C F. | Kinghorn, Sqn Ldr. E |
| Corbet, Mrs. F K. (Peckham) | Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) | Kirkwood, Rt Hon D |
| Craddock, George (Bradford. S.) | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J (Lianelly) | Lee, F. (Newton) |
| Crawley, A. | Griffiths, W. D. (Exchange) | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) |
| Crosland. C A. R | Gunter. R J | Lewis, A W J (West Ham N.) |
| Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. | Parker, J. | Stross, Dr. B |
| Longden, F. (Small Heath) | Paton, J. | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith |
| McAllister, G. | Pearson, A. | Sylvester, G O. |
| MacCott, J. E. | Peart, T. F. | Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield) |
| McGhee, H. G. | Poole, Cecil | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| McGovern, J. | Popplewell, E. | Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare) |
| McInnes, J. | Porter, G. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| McKay, J (Wallsand) | Price, M. Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) | Thomas, I.O. (Wrekin) |
| McLeavy, F. | Pryde, D. J. | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. | Pursey, Comdr. H | Thurtle, Ernest |
| MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Rankin, J. | Timmons, J. |
| Mainwaring, W. H. | Rees, Mrs. D. | Tomlinson, Rt. Hon G |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Reeves, J. | Tomney, F |
| Mann, Mrs. J. | Reid, T. (Swindon) | Ungoed-Thomas, A L |
| Manual, A. C. | Reid, W (Camlachie) | Usborne, Henry |
| Marquand, Rt. Hon. H A | Rhodes, H. | Vernon, Maj. W F |
| Mathers, Rt. Hon. George | Richards, R | Viant, S. P. |
| Messer, F. | Robens, A. | Wallace, H. W |
| Middleton, Mrs. L | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) | Webb, Rt. Hon M.(Bradford, C.) |
| Mikardo, Ian | Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) | Wells, P. L. (Favsrsham) |
| Mitchison, G. R | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) | Wells, W. T. (Walsall) |
| Moeran, E W. | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) | West, D. G. |
| Moody, A. S. | Royle, C. | Wheatley. Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.> |
| White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E) | ||
| Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Shackleton, E. A. A | Whileley, Rt. Hon. W |
| Morley, R. | Shinwell, Rt. Hon E | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) | Shurmer, P. L. E. | Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon H. (Lewisham, S.) | Silverman, S. S. (Nelson) | Willey, O. G. (Cleveland) |
| Mort, D. L. | Simmons, C. J | Williams, D. J. (Neath) |
| Moyle, A. | Slater, J. | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) |
| Mulley, F. W | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) |
| Murray, J. D | Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S) | Winterbottom, I. (Nottingham, C.) |
| Nally, W | Snow, J. W. | Winterbottom, R. E. (Brightside) |
| Neal, H | Sorensen, R. W. | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J | Sparks, J. A. | Younger, Hon. Kenneth |
| Oldfield, W. H | Steele, T. | |
| Padley, W. E. | Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Dearne V'lly) | Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Mr. Proctor and Mr. Monslow. |
| Pannell, T. C. | Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R (Vauxhall) |
Bill read a Second time.