ENCAMPMENTS, NEW FOREST (Hansard, 15 February 1951)

§ Colonel Crosthwaite - Eyre (New Forest)
The purpose of initiating this debate this evening is to ask for information on a matter of local importance, and I hope that the House will not mind, after the important debate which we have just concluded, turning to a matter which affects my division only. We have always prided ourselves that, as far as lies within our power, we try to ameliorate the lot of every section of the community, and we are faced tonight with the 744 case of a small group of people who number, so far as I know, only about 500, but who are completely neglected and have had no chance whatever in these post-war years.
I do not wish to make a prejudiced case tonight about the gipsies, as one is entitled to call them by ancient history, but they are a people who have a sad record, particularly in the local courts. I know that in many cases the older gipsies of the New Forest have known only one way of living, and that they are not particularly anxious to accept any other, but that is certainly not true of all the younger people who live in the area—the people who are being called up, who have served in the Forces, or, indeed, of the children who live in these camps, and who are being brought up in conditions, to which I shall refer later, which I am quite certain no one on either side of this House would tolerate for a moment.

§ Earl Winterton (Horsham)
They are not only in the New Forest.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
It is true that it is not only in the New Forest that gipsies are found and I agree with my right hon. Friend, but I am simply confining myself to the terms of the case I wish to raise. I think it is fair to say that gipsies are found all over the country, but that the majority of them are at the moment in the New Forest, and I think the noble Lord will find that that is the case if he looks up the figures.
In the New Forest, there has been an age-old custom that for 24 or 48 hours anybody may camp. After that time they were expected to move off; but for that limited period the New Forest was open to anybody who wanted to pitch a tent or halt a caravan, as the case might be. It was only on the outbreak of the last war that we found the gipsies brought into encampments. That was done, I understand, for reasons of national security—at any rate, that was certainly the official reason given. They were concentrated in two or three places, and were told that the licensed camping in forest was withdrawn, and that if they wished to camp, they must do so in those two or three stipulated places.
Since the end of the war, no effort has been made to revert to the old practice of allowing people to camp for 24 or 48 hours. Those encampments have been retained, and made almost permanent sites. I think it is true to say that this is a new practice which has grown up since 1945. I myself first came up against this problem in the election of 1945, when I went round those encampments. I was horrified at the conditions there, and took immediate steps to try to do something, if not to solve the problem, at least to ameliorate it. We had a conference early in 1946, as a result of which a deputation was taken to the Ministry of Health soon afterwards. We put the whole problem to the Government and pointed out that the steps we proposed were perfectly legal.
At that stage, the Ministry of Health said that they were willing to consider the matter, but I am sorry to say that since that time nothing has happened. For five years, despite the misery of these people, the Government have done nothing either to respond to the approach made by the county authorities or to submit alternative proposals. As a matter of fact, the whole thing has been very conveniently pigeon-holed.
746 The Minister may have seen the great publicity which the New Forest gipsies received about a year ago in some of our illustrated and Sunday papers. It may be that hon. Members present tonight saw those pictures, but let me assure them of one thing, which is that what they saw was no exaggeration whatever of the conditions in which those people live. I do not think that any hon. Member, unless he has been there and seen those camps for himself, can have any idea of their appalling condition. In the first place, the Forestry Commission say that these people may not have a floor of any sort at all. Therefore, in these shacks the maximum protection against damp, and all the rest, is a piece of linoleum or felt, or some material of that nature, placed on the bare earth.
Then there is the question of drinking water. One would not think that the provision of drinking water was anything extraordinary, yet the people in those encampments may have no drinking water at all. They are confined to being able to find some local owner of a property who will allow them to draw water from his well, or to go, against the orders of the Forestry Commission, to the nearest stream. They may have to walk up to half a mile in order to get water from a local stream which is probably contaminated by animals and so on, and even that source of water is in theory, if not in practice, prohibited to them.
Again, there are no forms of sanitation whatsoever. Even in the most barbaric times, we did have some sort of drainage system and sanitation. There is nothing in these encampments. One might say that these people live as wild beasts. I think it is true to say that if one went round these encampments, as I have done, one would agree that no animal whatsoever could be kept on a farm in the conditions in which these gipsies live at the moment.
I have often asked why this has come about. The usual answer is that it is because of a quarrel between Government Departments. The Forestry Commission have allowed these encampments to grow up because they knew of no other answer. The Ministry of Health say, "We have no responsibility because we do not know the problem officially exists." The local councils simply say, "What can we do? This is Crown land. We cannot enforce any of our by-laws in regard to sanitation 747 or anything else." So the whole thing drifts in a sort of miasma of minutes between Government Departments and others, without anything happening at all.
I have mentioned sanitation and water. I hope that if any hon. Member of this House does have an opportunity he will go and look at these encampments and see the conditions. It is a fact that no permanent building whatsoever is allowed to be erected and people live in shacks made of pieces of canvas and old felt held up by poles. Water runs through the shacks. These are conditions which I am certain no hon. Members would tolerate for a second if they saw them for themselves.
There is also the question of the incidence of disease. People are herded together, from grandparents to children within a small area of 20 feet. I have seen a person very sick with tuberculosis sharing a shack with young children, without ventilation or any amenity. I suggest that it is time that what was set out in the Baker Report in 1927 was truly considered. It may be that what we suggested is not the right answer, but it was a concrete suggestion which would have produced a solution to this problem. If it was the wrong answer, then surely in five years the Ministers concerned should have been able to think of a better one.
I am only going to ask, in view of this misery and depravity, that in this House we should resolve to try to remove the unnecessary suffering to which these people are subjected. I do not approach this matter in a party spirit. All I want is to see that this unfortunate segment of humanity is recognised as something to be rescued, to be fostered and to be re-established, and it is in that hope that I have spoken on the Adjournment tonight.

§ Mr. Shackleton (Preston, South)
I should like to support the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) because, as a constituent of his, I happen to live quite near one of these encampments. I think he was a little less than fair when putting the blame, so to speak, on Government Departments, because, as I am sure he will admit, it is a very old problem which has become exaggerated as time has gone on.
748 These people have not lived under conditions which people accustomed to living in houses would consider satisfactory, but I must confess that I cannot see a very easy solution to this problem. I agree that it is something which has to be tackled. If one were to put them to live in houses, which seems to be the only obvious solution, perhaps one would interfere with their rights and would not necessarily improve their living conditions. If we were to take these people, who are accustomed to living in the open, and crowd them into houses in the present housing situation, we might produce diseases, such as T.B., from which I believe they are at the moment largely free. I understand that there is a great deal of disease in the sense that they suffer from tapeworm and such things, and the sanitary conditions, too, are appalling as a result of the refusal of the Forestry Commission to permit a previously nomad people to move from one encampment to another.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
The hon. Member will see that in the Baker Report we suggested special types of Army hutted camps for these people.

§ Mr. Shackleton
I was about to refer to that Report. This is a problem which at the moment falls to nobody for solution. I urge the Minister to look at the Baker Report, to examine its proposals carefully and to see whether he can find a solution to the problem. What is needed is someone with authority to tackle the problem. Local doctors and others have for a long time been pressing to get something done. I urge the Minister to do what he can to bring his Ministerial colleagues and local authorities together to try to find a solution.

§ Earl Winterton (Horsham)
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for New Forest (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) has given what is undoubtedly an accurate report of the most horrifying conditions in the New Forest, and he has been supported by the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton). I do not want to get on to the wider aspects of the problem, but I ask the Minister to say, when he replies, whether the whole question of the treatment of gipsies in England should not be considered. I asked a Question on the subject in the House the other day 749 and, amid loud cheers from all parts of the House, I said that these unfortunate people were being harried and persecuted by local authorities and the police all over England. I think the time has come for a Royal Commission or a Committee of Inquiry to inquire into the whole question.

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Local Government and Planning (Mr. Lindgren)
I am at a disadvantage tonight which I do not altogether enjoy. In every responsibility which I have undertaken I have tried at least to obtain some visual picture of the problem about which I am to speak, and to obtain it before I am called upon to speak. As the responsibilities of the Ministry I now serve have recently been extended, I must admit quite openly that I know nothing of this problem except what I have been able to gather from the files within the Department.
As soon as he knew that he had secured the Adjournment the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) was good enough to give me notice that he intended to raise this subject, so that I had some time to look at the files before this short debate. I promise the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I shall remedy my lack of firsthand knowledge as quickly as possible—in fact, as soon as the exigencies of attendance at this House permit. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman and I might pair and so make it possible for us to discuss the matter on the site in order that I might obtain personal knowledge of the subject.
From what I have seen of the Department's files, the hon. and gallant Gentleman has very much over-stated his case. He said that these people have been completely neglected, and that is just not true. In all these things I make the qualification that I speak from the files, but I would say that no other single group of people have had so much attention from so many different sources. I do not know whether I ought to quote names but, apart from all sorts of Government Departments, there is at least one local practitioner who has time and time again made representations. From the files I see that he has given years of assistance and study to the problem, in co-operation with the medical officer of health, 750 the district nurse, the local sanitary inspector, the school nurse and the school teachers of the area.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
I am perfectly prepared to say that attention has been given to this matter but what on earth can all these authorities do if there is no water and no sanitation?

§ Mr. Shackleton
I know both the local practitioners very well, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that they have been striving for years to get something done and are completely dissatisfied with the situation today.

§ Mr. Lindgren
This is the disadvantage I find myself in. Either the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has raised the question is completely wrong, or the Department's files are completely wrong. They cannot both be right, because the files I have seen do, in fact, inform me that the local rural district council have provided standing water pipes for almost every compound.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
Oh, no: they have not.

§ Earl Winterton
Will the hon. Gentleman come and see for himself?

§ Mr. Lindgren
I will with pleasure. If it is true that these pipes are not provided, then it is not the fault of Government departments. It is, in fact, the fault of the local sanitary authority who have had the responsibility for them.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
No, they have not.

§ Mr. Lindgren
But they have. They are the local sanitary authority. The medical officer of health and the sanitary inspector are the responsible people, in conjunction with the Forestry Commission. The Forestry Commission have, partly because of the prevalence of ground worm, required these folk to live within confined areas. Again, the medical reports in the files I have seen are unanimous, except that one local practitioner rather differs from the general medical view.

§ Earl Winterton
If the hon. Gentleman looks into the matter he will find that no local authority has the power he thinks they have over Crown land. Otherwise, the Government could not have an inn in London for which they do not apply for a licence.

§ Mr. Lindgren
The noble Lord made a very useful interjection, which I accept in the spirit in which he made it; but, if he is going to make political "cracks" about inns in London and Crown land, I must refute him. I have made the admission right away that my only knowledge of this matter is from the files. My information from this source is that there has been the fullest co-operation between the local sanitary authority, who are the local rural district council, and the county council and the medical officer of health, and all of them have, to the best of their ability, provided all the facilities required.
Here I have a licence by which the authority can enforce the conditions under which the people stay there. The local licence requires that these folk shall provide an independent latrine for each family unit. The licence is here available for the hon. Members to see. Every one of these people signs it and it is renewed annually.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that just because something is printed on a piece of paper, he believes it?

§ Mr. Lindgren
I am not going to say that I believe it; but after all, there are local sanitary officials and a forestry authority.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
Let me get this straight. The New Forest is Crown property and therefore the local district council, the medical officer of health, and all the other authorities have no powers whatever over it.

§ Mr. Lindgren
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is completely wrong. All I can go on are the words of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, plus the information I have before me. He has certain local knowledge which I believe he has wrongly stated or exploited or misquoted. I am prepared to go and look at the problem and discuss it with everybody locally. But I am concerned that the hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech is a criticism, not of the Government Department, but of the local sanitary authority and the local forestry authority. If it is not that, who is it he is criticising?

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
The Government.

§ Mr. Lindgren
That is really why the hon. and gallant Gentleman raised this matter, but it simply is not true. This is a problem that has been with us since the Ark. It is not a post-war problem. Did not we have gipsies before the war? Were not the gipsies a pre-war problem too? Were they not in the New Forest prior to 1945?

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
The hon. Gentleman is rather trailing his coat. I tried to make it clear that before the war, one merely had the problem of the itinerant gipsies who were allowed to stay 24 to 48 hours, but never allowed to become part of an encampment, which is a post-war development.

§ Mr. Lindgren
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is completely wrong again. The problem has been one of persons who have been almost static for hundreds of years and the families of these gipsies have been there for generations. It is not that the change has been made since the war. In order to control a public health requirement and to deal with a public health problem, namely, the development of round-worm among the gipsies which had an injurious effect upon the children in particular, the gipsies were required to remain static and to live within the confines of certain areas. Within the confines of these areas, there are provided certain facilities, one of which is water, provided by the local authority.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
No, it is not.

§ Mr. Lindgren
The hon. and gallant Gentleman says it is not. Then, the files are wrong and the local sanitary authority has been failing in its duty. In these areas, in order to control the extension of round-worm, each independent unit has been required to provide its own latrines, and to see that is done has been the responsibility of the medical officer of health of the county, in conjunction with the rural district council, the sanitary inspector of the rural district council, and the local officer of the Forestry Commission. I agree they cannot all be on duty all the twenty-four hours. One has had the district nurse, the school nurse, and all other such services developed in this area. Equally, it is true, this is a criticism of the local authority.
These people are eligible for local authority housing lists. If some of the 753 conditions are such as the hon. and gallant Gentleman says, and these people are as good as he has stated—I understand some of these folk are very good and some are almost hopeless—then there is a requirement upon the local authority to treat these people exactly the same as anybody else.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
There are not any houses.

§ Mr. Lindgren
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman can show that this local authority—the rural district council—has built up to its building allocation, then they can have more houses to deal with these people if they require them. The local authority has put some of these people into huts which have been provided. Again, the responsibility is upon the local authority and upon the individuals themselves.
I can only close on the note on which I opened my reply, and on which I intended to carry on this debate. It is recognised that a problem, and almost a special problem, exists, but it is not a gipsy problem. Those who are in the generally accepted gipsy line of country are of the best type. There are, however, others, and while one does not want to create problems by using phrases which might be misconstrued, it could be said that people who are far from the real 754 nomadic gipsies are sometimes found here; they are people who have become easy-living squatters.
As soon as Parliamentary duties will permit, I will go to this site; I give that promise, and I will go with the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He referred to the Baker Report, but I must admit that I have not read it. I shall now look at it to see what the recommendations are, and anything that we can do to help the local authority to carry out its duties in relation to these people we shall be pleased to do. But there must be co-operation by the folk themselves.
If these folk will not go into houses—and some have been offered houses, but have refused them—and if normal accommodation is not taken if available, then the responsibility is not with the Ministry or with the local authority. It is with the people themselves, and we have got to have their co-operation. So far as my right hon. Friend and I and our Ministry are concerned, we are prepared to do everything we can in order that these people can have as square a deal in life as it is possible for them to have.