HC Deb 10 May 1950 vol 475 cc386-90
69. Mr. Hurd

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further sums in addition to the £810,000 already made public, have been advanced to the Colonial Development Corporation for the purposes of the Gambia poultry project; and if he will give the main heads of the dollar expenditure incurred.

Mr. J. Dugdale

The answer to the first part of the Question is "None, Sir." As regards the second part, the question of dollar expenditure is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr. Hurd

Would it not have saved the time of the House if the right hon. Gentleman had given this information this afternoon?

Mr. Dugdale

No, Sir. Questions that should properly be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be so addressed, and this Question was not so addressed. This Question was addressed to the wrong Minister.

Mr. Eden

With respect, are we not to ask any Government Department what their dollar expenditure has been under any head, and must Questions always be put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Is that not an entirely new rule?

Mr. York

Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's Department controls the Colonial Development Corporation?

Mr. Dugdale

It exercises a general control over it, but dollar expenditure is controlled by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr. Eden

Cannot the Minister tell us what his own Department's expenditure is? No doubt it has to be sanctioned by the Chancellor, but the right hon. Gentleman is here to answer for his Department.

Mr. Dugdale

No, Sir. In these matters it is the responsibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to answer these Questions. I should be quite ready to answer them, but I do not wish to attempt to take over any of the many and varied responsibilities of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr. R. S. Hudson

On previous occasions in regard to this particular scheme, for which the Minister has responsibility on behalf of the Overseas Food Corporation, his predecessor has given this information about the amount of dollars spent, particularly on buying eggs in America. Why should he not do it again?

Mr. Dugdale

I do not know what the Minister of Food has done in that respect, but as regards our responsibility for the Colonial Development Corporation, it is not our responsibility to detail the amounts and to split up the details of dollar expenditure. I can only give the capital sanctions, which in fact I have given.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

While believing, with my right hon. and hon. Friends, that that is a most absurd statement, could the right hon. Gentleman give us the dollar content of any egg that has arrived from this scheme?

Mr. Dugdale

I am sorry that the Opposition have chosen to spot-light this important development, and that they wish to direct all the venom of their attack upon this—[An HON. MEMBER: "Oh!"] They have previously tried to do so over the groundnut scheme—[An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Now they have turned it to this. We hope this will be a great success, and the people of England hope so, too.

Mr. Eden

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—if he will try to forget the word "venom" for a moment—whether it is now the position that no Questions can be asked of any Government Department in respect of dollar expenditure?

Mr. Dugdale

I cannot speak for the whole of the Government. I say that this is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would not be proper for me to speak for the Government as a whole.

Mr. Eden

May I ask the Leader of the House—I am only asking for guidance—to tell us if it is now the position that we cannot ask any Government Department about its dollar expenditure, but must always ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer? We will do our best to comply; we would just like to know.

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

On the face of it I think my right hon. Friend has a perfectly good case, but if the right hon. Gentleman wants a considered reply to that point, he had better put a Question down to the Prime Minister or to myself. Then we will look into it and give him that considered reply to which he is undoubtedly entitled as one who has a position on the Opposition Front Bench.

Sir H. Williams

On a point of Order. Yesterday on this point. Sir, I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Question Time about the interpretation of an Order which was to be moved later in the day. He said he knew nothing about it. Later in the evening, in Debate, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power said he could not answer the question because it was a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Is it not right that these responsibilities should be clearly defined, and that one Ministry should not be allowed to get away with it by referring to another Ministry?

Mr. Speaker

As far as I am concerned what a Minister answers is not a point of Order. That is a matter which the House can deal with themselves; it is not for me.

Earl Winterton

On a point of Order. Is it not a fact, Sir, that your predecessor, Mr. Speaker Lowther, on one occasion ruled that expletives should not be used either in Questions or answers to Questions? May I call your attention to the fact that if such expletives are used in answers to Questions, Question Time takes the place of Debate, which it should not do?

Mr. Speaker

I agree with the noble Lord. I think he was out of the House just now when I said I hoped that supplementaries would always be short and snappy, because we have too many speeches.

Earl Winterton

That was not quite my point, Sir. I am sorry to persist in it. I was not questioning your Ruling, I was only calling your attention to the Ruling of Mr. Speaker Lowther, that expletives should not be used in answers to Questions. If it is the new rule that the Government can use any word or phrase they like about the Opposition in answer to a Question, Question Time in future will be somewhat turbulent.

Mr. Speaker

What was the word?

Mr. Eden

The word was "Venom." Mr Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Now I have the point. I always think it is a great pity at Question Time if we fling things across the Floor from one side or the other. Mr. Speaker Lowther in his book, I remember quite well, said that once you chuck the ball on to the Floor of the House it gets kicked back from the other side and then it is hard for the Speaker or Chairman to get the ball back into proper play. Those are sound words and all these provocative things at Question Time do not add to the value of the answers. All I would say is that I hope both sides will avoid it as much as possible.

Lord John Hope

Further to that point, may we take it that the Minister was definitely off-side on this occasion?

Mr. Speaker

I was not acting as referee on this occasion.