§ 4. Mr. Draysonasked the Minister of Supply if he will give details of the scheme whereby local authority officials and others are able to buy secondhand motor cars from his Department; on what basis the prices are fixed; and whether any restrictions as to resale are imposed
§ Mr. G. R. StraussI will, with permission, answer this Question and Question No. 6 together.
§ Mr. KeelingOn a point of Order. Can the first part of my Question No. 6 which has no connection whatever with Question No. 4, be answered separately?
§ Mr. StraussI think the Questions are closely connected. The hon. Member presumably can ask a supplementary question on the particular point he has in mind.
§ Mr. KeelingI think it has been laid down by you, Mr. Speaker, that an hon. Member's permission is required for this procedure, and I think you will agree, and the House will agree that the first part of Question No. 6 has no connection whatever with Question No. 4.
§ Mr. StraussI submit that it is very closely connected but, if it is desired, I will read the same answer twice.
§ Mr. SpeakerI have no control over the Minister if he chooses to answer both Questions together. I think the hon. Member is wrong. It is not a matter for my permission.
§ Mr. Oliver StanleyIf that is so, Sir, why has it been the custom of the Minister to say, " With the hon. Member's permission " if, in fact, it is not required?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is not my permission; it is hon. Member's permission. I have nothing to do with it
§ Mr. StraussThe answer to both Questions is as follows: Until 31st March last, when the scheme was terminated, local authorities could buy surplus motor cars, but a condition of sale was that the cars should be used solely for the business of the council. The charge was at list price with Purchase Tax, less an allowance for depreciation. Surplus cars are inspected before disposal and are sold only if they are unsuitable for retention
§ Mr. DraysonIf the price is fixed at the list price less depreciation, does the Minister know that cars only a few years old often command a premium over this price and that by selling them in this way he is depriving the Treasury of money.
§ Mr. StraussBecause second-hand cars carry with them usually an artificial scarcity price, an arrangement was come to, in collaboration with the Minister of Health, that cars that local authorities required for their own official purposes should be sold at a special rate. This is a fair rate, but it does not take into account scarcity prices.
§ Mr. HarrisonIs the Minister aware that his answer that the Government are 1380 not prepared to back up this second-hand second-hand car racket will be welcomed throughout the country?
§ Mr. DraysonWill the Minister see that cars are made available to local authority officials in my constituency?
§ Mr. SpeakerHon. Members do not seem to have noticed the excellent advice I received from the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), that one of my very distinguished predecessors used to limit supplementary questions to two, or sometimes three, and very seldom more. We have a lot of Questions to get through, and if we are to get through, the matter might be left to my judgment. I think that the rule mentioned by the Father of the House is a good general rule to adopt.
§ Mr. Walter FletcherOn a point of Order. In view of the important principle which the Minister enunciated in his reply, about which I was not able to question him, relating to the whole question of disposal, I beg to give notice that I shall attempt to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
§ 6. Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Supply why Government motor cars, less than three years old, are sold by auction instead of being retained in use; and in what circumstances such motor cars are sold to local authority officials at prices lower than those obtainable at public auction
§ Mr. KeelingMay I say that it would be sufficient if, in reply to this Question, the Minister read the second part of his answer to Question No. 4?
§ Mr. StraussI have to repeat the answer which I read before, because it is quite impossible to separate the Questions.
Until 31st March last, when the scheme was terminated, local authorities could buy surplus motor cars, but a condition of sale was that the cars should be used solely for the business of the council. The charge was at list price with Purchase Tax, less an allowance for depreciation. Surplus cars are inspected before disposal and are sold only if they are unsuitable for retention.
§ Mr. KeelingIs the Minister aware that many of the 2,250 cars sold at this sale, a catalogue of which I have in my hand, fetched far more than the list price for new cars? Does that not show that they were in excellent condition? Does not the fact that the Government are selling cars only two years old mean that they are getting far more than their proper share of new cars?
§ Mr. StraussI am not sure whether I followed the hon. Gentleman's question. These were old cars which were not required—
§ Mr. KeelingTwo years old.
§ Mr. StraussOver three years old.
§ Mr. KeelingNo, some less.
§ Mr. StraussIf we had sold them by auction they would, no doubt, have fetched higher prices, but because they continued to be used for the public service we sold them at a reasonable price and not at scarcity value.
§ Mr. Sydney SilvermanAre the cars sold to any officials at all? Was not my right hon. Friend's answer that they were sold to the local authorities and not to their officials, coupled with a condition of sale? May I ask whether the condition of sale was always observed?
§ Mr. StraussThese cars were sold to local authorities for business use. It appears that the local authority concerned re-sold these cars, in violation of the agreement. to certain officials of the council.
§ Mr. KeelingIs the Minister not aware that the first part of my Question refers to cars sold by auction? It has nothing whatever to do with the sale of cars to local government officials. They were cars sold by auction, which fetched far more than the new price.
§ Mr. StraussObviously, it is the duty of my Department, when selling surplus property, to get the best price possible for it, but I think it is a proper exception, when cars are to continue to be used in the public service, that an appropriate arrangement should be made with the local authorities who are to use them.
§ Mr. StraussNot without notice.