HC Deb 10 July 1950 vol 477 cc1095-102

Considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

1. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1949, that the aggregate Expenditure on Navy Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer

Schedule
No. of Vote Navy Services, 1948–49 Votes DEFICITS SURPLUSES
Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, &c, of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. — — 654,390 19 4 59,108 11 3
2 Victualling and Clothing for the Navy. — 84,463 19 9 269,994 0 9 —
3 Medical Establishments and Services. — — 29,961 13 8 34,437 19 10
4 Civilians employed on Fleet Services. — 43,153 12 10 131,256 10 5 —
5 Educational Services — — 23,062 18 8 18,525 1 3
6 Scientific Services — 30,051 14 6 26,312 10 6 —
7 Royal Naval Reserves — — 26,844 8 5 16 7 2
8 Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.—
Section I.—Personnel — 18,121 17 5 156,539 13 10 —
Section II.—Matériel 601,830 6 6 — — 756,326 11 4
Section III.—Contract Work. 470,167 12 7 — — 1,975,912 8 1
9 Naval Armaments — 579,194 8 7 93,577 14 4 —
10 Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad. 353,638 8 7 — — 99,546 7 3
11 Miscellaneous Effective Services. — — 144,750 7 6 214,579 8 0
12 Admiralty Office 110,888 0 8 — — 5,079 10 4
13 Non-effective Services — — 75,611 7 1 1,568 17 0
14 Merchant Shipbuilding, &c. — 42,907 11 3 79,087 10 0 —
— Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned. 58,928 16 0 — — —
1,595,453 4 4 797,893 4 4 1,711,389 14 6 3,165,101 1 6
Total Deficits:£2,393,3468s.8d. Total Surpluses:£4,876,49016s.0d.
Net Surplus £2,483,144 7s. 4d.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. Callaghan.]

Grants for Navy Services over the net Expenditure is £2,483,144 7s. 4d., namely:

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses … 4,876,490 16 0
Total Deficits … 2,393,346 8 8
Net Surplus … £2,483,144 7 4

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.

10.12 p.m.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

Before we pass on ought not we to have some further information on this point? There is a great deal of mystery about these figures. I fail to understand what some of these items are. I should like for example an explanation of Miscellaneous Effective Services and we might have an explanation of the figure of £1,975,000 in Section IH—Contract Work. I think we should have some explanation from the Minister before we pass those items—

The Chairman (Major Milner)

That is out of order. The only questions which can arise on this matter are as to how respective surpluses or deficits arise. The rest is a matter of accountancy.

Mr. Keenan (Liverpool, Kirkdale)

I should like some information about one item which is the increase in the Admiralty Vote of £110,000. It seems to me there is no justification for that increase.

The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. James Callaghan)

I do not know whether I am

Schedule
No. of Vote Army Services, 1948-49 Votes DEFICITS SURPLUSES
Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, &c., of the Army — — 3,255,718 0 6 694,592 11 2
2 Reserve Forces, Territorial Army and Cadet Forces. — — 1,014,181 11 2 11,057 15 1
3 War Office 246,990 15 10 — — 4,655 9 10
4 Civilians — 172,286 3 3 2,153,463 0 4 —
5 Movements — — 976,694 17 2 72,130 17 7
6 Supplies, &c. 485,311 18 4 — — 2,526,902 13 5
7 Stores — — 961,866 0 10 620,071 10 5
8 Works, Buildings and Lands. — — 879,747 9 8 150,622 16 9
9 Miscellaneous Effective Services. — — 946,613 17 11 732,674 4 6
10 Non-effective Services 258,786 13 7 12,014 18 4 — —
— Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned. 889,435 14 1 — — —
1,880,525 1 10 184,301 1 7 10,188,284 17 7 4,812,707 18 9
Total Deficits:£2,064,8263s.5d. Total Surpluses:£15,000,99216s.4d.
Net Surplus £12,936,166 12s. 11d.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. M. Stewart.]

in order in making this reply, but the answer to all these questions is contained in the Navy Appropriation Account, 1948-49, which was House of Commons Paper number 15. And because they are there is why you rule Major Milner, that we are not entitled to discuss them now.

II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1949, that the aggregate Expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Army Services over the net Expenditure is £12,936,166 I2s. 11d., namely:

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses 15,000,992 16 4
Total Deficits 2,064,826 3 5
Net Surplus £12,936,166 12 11

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Armv Services.

10.12 p.m.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

I understood you to say, Major Milner, that we were in order if we asked questions as to how these deficits arose. I should like to have some further details as to how they did arise. Did any of them arise from activities in Aqaba, or Hong Kong? Did any of these deficits arise as the result of Malaya? I think we should have some explanation. For example, did they arise out of preparations for bacteriological warfare? Did they arise—

The Chairman

I do not think the hon. Gentleman can indulge in a roving commission of that description. He must ask a specific question on a specific item and bring something to support his question. Otherwise one may ask whether these funds relate to all sorts of things.

Mr. Hughes

I was not indulging in a roving commission; I was only asking the questions you suggested, Major Milner. For example, you suggested I was in order in asking how these deficits arose. I started with Aqaba, and I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if any of these deficits arose in Aqaba, Hong Kong or Singapore. Can we have some kind of geographical explanation?

The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Michael Stewart)

I am sorry to disappoint the highly coloured imagination of my hon. Friend. I think the Committee would not wish me to go into great detail over information already before us in the Army Appropriation Account. But just to give one example, the deficit in the War Office Vote arises from the fact that in the year under discussion the reduction in War Office staff was not as great as had been anticipated; though my hon. Friend will be glad to know that in the subsequent year there was a reduction of some 1,400 persons. The deficit on Vote 6 (Supplies, etc.) arises simply from under-estimation of the amount required for provisions and forage, fuel and light and the underestimates were of the order of 1 per cent., 2 per cent. and 3 per cent., such as is normally expected as a deficiency in estimation. Practically all the items now before us can be explained in those terms of minor errors in Estimates. In the Appropriation Account, they have already come under the eye of the Public Accounts Committee.

III. Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1949, that the aggregate Expenditure on Air Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Air Services over the net expenditure is £5,875,792 11s. 9d., namely:

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses … 6,662,584 10 1
Total Deficits … 786,791 18 4
Net Surplus … £5,875,792 11 9

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Air Services.

Schedule
No. of Vote Air Services, 1948-49 Votes DEFICITS SURPLUSES
Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, &c., of the Air Force — 2,213 14 8 278,971 2 0 —
2 Reserve and Auxiliary Services. — — 87,201 4 6 538 8 8
3 Air Ministry — — 1,402 3 3 2,952 15 5
4 Civilians at Outstations — — 306,180 3 11 83,318 17 0
5 Movements 108,220 19 0 — — 472,328 3 11
6 Supplies 293,011 5 10 — — 923,693 14 11
7 Aircraft and Stores — — 1,976,090 9 0 1,368,966 17 6
8 Works and Lands — — 327,597 0 11 597,911 14 6
9 Miscellaneous Effective Services. 321,514 14 6 — — 189,873 7 11
10 Non-effective Services — — 42,654 10 7 2,903 16 1
— Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned. 61,831 4 4 — — —
784,578 3 8 2,213 14 8 3,020,096 14 2 3,642,487 15 11
Total Deficits:£786,79118s.4d. Total Surpluses:£6,662,58410s.1d.
Net Surplus £5,875,792 11s. 9d.

Resolved: "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. Crawley.]

Resolutions to be reported Tomorrow.