First Schedule.—(THE GENERAL NURSING COUNCIL FOR ENGLAND AND WALES.) (Hansard, 28 October 1949)

§ Mr. Howard
I beg to move, in page 13, line 11, at the end, to insert: and one shall be a member of the University Grants Committee. The Amendment needs very few words of explanation because it particularises a general picture which we have discussed more than once already this morning. It is an attempt to make the good even better. The Bill provides that the Council shall include two persons … of whom one shall be appointed to represent universities in England and Wales. 1705 The Amendment seeks to provide that one of those two persons shall be a member of the University Grants Committee, in order to ensure that amongst those two members appointed by the Privy Council there shall be one with the highest possible experience of work parallel to that which the General Nursing Council, as reconstituted, will have to do.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I do not feel that we should tie the hands of the Privy Council in this way. They already have the obligation that one of the two members appointed by them shall represent the universities in England and Wales. It seems to me that if we were to make a specific requirement in the manner which is suggested, they would be prevented from exercising any general discretion at all. There is also the point that it might happen that they would not be able to get the agreement of a member of the University Grants Committee to serve as suggested. In that event they would be placed in a rather difficult position. On all these suggestions of further specification of particular categories for representation, we have already gone as far as we ought to go. We have given the matter a very great deal of consideration and there is danger in tying the hands of the appointing bodies too tightly.

§ Mr. Howard
There is great force in the answer which has been given by the Parliamentary Secretary. I am sure he will not disregard the point of view expressed in the Amendment, but in view of what he has said I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I beg to move, in page 13, line 16, after "persons," to insert: (hereinafter referred to as 'the general electors').

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I beg to move, in page 13, line 37, to leave out "by local health authorities," and to insert 1706 in services provided under Part III of the National Health Service Act, 1946. Some of the local health authority services under Part III of the National Health Service Act may be provided by voluntary organisations as agents of the local authority. We have no wish to exclude possible representation of that kind of service and the Amendment ensures that there may be a selection from the voluntary services as well as from the local authority.

§ Sir H. Lucas-Tooth
I should like to say how much we on this side of the Committee welcome the Amendment, which we regard as being wholly in the right direction.

§ Mr. Burden (Sheffield, Park)
I beg to move, in page 14, line 6, at the end, to insert: (d) one shall be a nurse whose name is included in the supplementary part of the register containing the names of nurses trained in the nursing of persons suffering from infectious diseases, appointed by him after consultation with such persons and bodies as he thinks fit, being persons and bodies having special knowledge and experience of the work of nurses whose names are so included. The Amendment has the support of the National Association of Local Government Officers and emanates from the membership within their ranks. Secondly, I submit that the nursing staff in question are in possession of special qualifications. Direct representation on the General Nursing Council would enable this very important section of the nursing staffs to make a distinctive and real contribution to the work of the Council. That contribution, I believe, can only be made by someone with a personal and intimate knowledge of the problems affecting this section of the nursing staffs.
I cannot see why the particular Section of the nursing service embraced by the Amendment should be treated differently from the nurses in Scotland. I know that Emerson says that A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds but the First Schedule to the Nurses (Scotland) Bill uses these words: one, who shall be a registered fever nurse, shall be elected by registered fever nurses. The registered fever nurses in England cannot understand why the Minister treats 1707 them differently from their colleagues in Scotland and why there is to be a different set-up for the General Nursing Council in England to that in Scotland.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I am in some doubt about this whole series of Amendments. If we were to grant what is asked for, we would have to increase the size of the General Nursing Council rather considerably. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If they were all to be added together, that is true. Obviously, it is important that instead of having an unwieldy General Nursing Council—it might be argued that we already have a body which is somewhat too large—we ought to try to retain, as I mentioned in replying to the previous Amendment, in the hands of the appointing Ministers and the Privy Council some discretion regarding the interests of the persons to be represented If I were to give way on this series of Amendments we would lose that freedom which it is vital for the Minister to retain.
Naturally the Minister, in deciding upon the three places which are open to him to appoint, would have regard to this class of nurses amongst others; but it would be wrong to tie the Minister to these particularisations. Furthermore, I am glad to be able to say that, owing to the decline of the need for fever nurses, at which we are all delighted, the fever register is declining rapidly. New admissions, I understand, have declined from 740 in 1946 to about 300 this year. Indeed, we would rather look forward to the early cessation of special training for this register, and we would rather expect to find within the general training of nurses that knowledge of infectious diseases that is necessary and which would give them, within the representation already provided for the nurses, the type of experience which has been referred to.
The position in Scotland is rather different. We should not necessarily follow Scottish practice in every case, because their definition of a fever nurse includes rather different types of nurses from ours. For that reason, I trust that my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment.

§ Mr. Burden
Would the Minister, in making these appointments, consider 1708 what I have submitted to the Committee, and would it be understood that he will endeavour to consult bodies with special knowledge of the range of problems before the appointments are made?

§ Mr. Skinnard
I beg to move, in page 14, line 7, to leave out, "one." and to insert "two."
I may have been foolishly optimistic but I had anticipated being able to avoid repeating this morning some of the arguments I used in my Second Reading speech last week, arguments which were supported by several of my hon. Friends who subsequently put their names to this Amendment. The Minister has not hedged and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Burden) for having drawn his fire so that I had some forewarning of the treatment which this Amendment and its consequential Amendments would be likely to receive.
That leads me to remind the Minister that he himself has decided the case on numerical grounds, for this is one of the Amendments which he took in a body, as limiting further his power of appointment. One of the Amendments to come is rash enough to ask for two out of the three places of his limited free choice, so I anticipate that it will get short shrift. Therefore, my humble request for just one only out of the three free places he has at the moment will, I am sure, receive greater favour than he was prepared to give a moment ago.
I would remind the Committee that while it is true that the 14 regions will each be called upon to elect a member of the nursing profession, it is more than likely that the majority of those, if not the entire number, will for reasons of prestige and their greater opportunities of appealing to the electorate be matrons of hospitals, probably senior matrons—that is, matrons senior in the nursing profession. Ward sisters—the necessity for the inclusion of a representative of which class is acknowledged by the provision I seek to have amended, are busy hospital executives with a varied range of duties and have not at their disposal the facilities which matrons have for putting out, as it were, an election address; for getting letters despatched to what will be quite considerable regional 1709 constituencies. I hesitate to say this because I know some startling exceptions to the rule, but ward sisters generally are apt to be modest in their estimate of their own importance in the nursing world, however vigorous they may be within the confines of their on hospital. They do not know what administrative and legislative possibilities in their profession are opening up for them in many cases.
I am not asking for an undue representation. I am only asking that ward sisters may make their point of view heard in the committee. The Minister will not be able to deny the likelihood that the only ward sister on the General Nursing Council will be the one he will have to appoint on the original provision. And the Minister himself, in trying to stave off my hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield, gave me this weapon. I would remind him that he himself said that the General Nursing Council may be deemed to be a little unwieldy already. How much more difficult then will be the task of the solitary representative of the technical nursing side of our hospital work if she is alone in a Council of that size. All I am asking, therefore, is that any proposal that the ward sisters, acting for the majority of hospital nurses, wish to put forward shall be assured of free consideration and an adequate discussion because there will be at least a proposer and a seconder for their point of view on the Council.

§ Mr. Sorensen
I support strongly the plea made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Harrow (Mr. Skinnard) and I was sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary seemed rather scornfully to throw all these Amendments into the wastepaper basket—

Hon. Members
No.

§ Mr. Skinnard
Like the late Mrs. Gamp, he sought to "proticipate."

§ Mr. Sorensen
If he did not do so, I withdraw part of that. Shall I say he was rather disdainful? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Then I withdraw it altogether and will assume instead that my hon. Friend was most anxious to try to meet our plea, but that he foresaw some insuperable difficulties, one of which was that he thought this was over-particu- 1710 larising the kind of representative who should be on the Council. Yet already he has accepted the principle of particularisation.
We have just accepted an Amendment to line 37 of this Schedule to the effect that two shall be registered nurses in services provided under Part III of the National Health Service Act, 1946. If the Parliamentary Secretary is prepared to particularise in that case, surely it is much more necessary to particularise in regard to ward sisters who are the backbone of the profession and have more continuous experience of actual nursing? It was for that reason that I used the unfortunate words I did, and although I have withdrawn them, the Parliamentary Secretary must realise that he cannot have it both ways. The fear he has expressed of over-particularisation falls to the ground, and therefore I urge him to accept the Amendment.
It may very well be that we would have a nurses' council on which no working nurse appeared. Although matrons and others well versed in administration would be there, it might be that none of the working nurses would be appointed I must urgently appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to consider this very sympathetically. As any of us who has experience of hospitals knows, it is the ward sister who is the pivot around which the whole system revolves. We have to try to get as many working nurses and ward sisters in this as we can. I hope my hon. Friend will modify the morbidity he has left in my soul in this connection.

§ Mr. Hastings
One of the principal objects of the General Nursing Council is to deal with the practical training of nurses, and the individuals who have the most part in that are the ward sisters. The sister tutors of the hospital deal with the theoretical training of the nurse, and the matron deals with the organisation of the nursing service generally in the hospital. Both individuals are somewhat remote from the direct, daily, personal, training of the student nurse. If anyone needs representation on the General Nursing Council, it is these people who are practically engaged all their time, or ought to be, in nurse training. I feel we cannot have too great a representation of the ward sisters who are the pivot of the whole hospital.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Lipton (Brixton)
I wish to support the Amendment. In view of the warm terms used on Second Reading in commendation of the ward sisters I am a little surprised to note the apparent reluctance of the Parliamentary Secretary to concede our request. I do not want to adopt a threatening attitude on this matter, but I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to know that four out of the five hon. Members who put their names to the Amendment are present. That almost constitutes a majority of those present, particularly if we can persuade the three hon. Members opposite to rally to our support on this matter. I would not like it to be thought that any of the arguments we have put forward in support of the increased representation of ward sisters are to be regarded as in any way critical of hospital matrons. Even within the privileged walls of this assembly, I should hesitate to criticise the matrons of our hospitals—

§ Mr. Sorensen
Does that mean that my hon. and gallant Friend is as frightened of them as are some nurses?

§ Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
I think it would help to make the work of the Council much more effective, and perhaps much more democratically representative of this very important section of the nursing profession, if the Minister were to concede this Amendment. Even if he does so, while he is tied as to 10 out of the 12 appointments which are within his power, he will still have a free hand as to two of the appointments. In those circumstances, I ask him, in view of the admittedly high regard in which everyone holds the contribution made to the hospital service by the ward sister, to grant this small concession.

§ Mr. Diamond
I hope that my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee will not think me lacking in logic if I say that I find myself in considerable sympathy with the Parliamentary Secretary's desire not to be compelled to fill three vacant places from six or seven appointees of one sort or another. The series of Amendments which follow all have the same point in view—to give representation to particular classes. I also hope my hon. Friend will bear in mind everything that has been said on behalf of the ward sister and anything that may 1712 be said of any member of the nursing world as a whole.
These different claims should be given the greatest possible consideration by my hon. Friend, but I think the General Nursing Council ought to be strengthened, and the desire of the Committee should be not to weaken it in any way. We would be weakening the General Nursing Council if we compelled the Minister to appoint from certain categories to such an extent that he was left no freedom of choice for appointing from those categories that might arise in the future and might require consideration, and those categories which exist at present but have had no consideration by hon. Members who have put down Amendments. If one wanted to include every category, one would have to move a large number of Amendments, and if we were to cover every category represented on the General Nursing Council and doing excellent work at the moment, many more Amendments would be necessary. I was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for East Harrow (Mr. Skinnard) said about the constitution of the General Nursing Council and the fear that it may be composed of matrons—

§ Mr. Skinnard
Only the elected members.

§ Mr. Diamond
Lest that point might arise, I have taken the precaution of ascertaining precisely the categories of the individuals elected at the time of their election. The present General Nursing Council consists of 25, and I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that the numbers have been increased almost to an unwieldy extent. Nine are appointed and, out of the 16 elected, nine are matrons and were matrons at the time of their election. If hon. Members are interested, I can give details of all the Members—

§ Mr. Skinnard
How many are ward sisters?

§ Mr. Diamond
There are nine matrons, three sister tutors, one male tutor, one departmental sister, one nurse and one engaged in administration. I hope that I have dealt with the fear that only those of one particular category would be likely to be elected to the Council if the Parliamentary Secretary were not empowered to appoint all in every case. The whole of my argument is based on this; that 1713 there are many categories to be consulted the existence of some of which we know at the moment, the existence of some of which will arise in the future, and of which we do not know. There are certain categories coming into existence as the art of nursing develops which do not fully exist at the moment and, perhaps, are not fully recognised. My hon. Friend may at some future date wish to make appointments from those categories. In those circumstances I wish to give to him the fullest support I can in his attitude of giving the fullest possible consideration to all categories, especially those mentioned by my hon. Friends, but in refusing to be limited in his choice, and therefore in refusing to weaken the structure of the General Nursing Council.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I am glad that we have had this short discussion on this matter. There has been recognition that we have in this Bill tried to provide a reasonable amount of representation to those particular interests, if I may use that term, which certainly require and demand particular representation. We have gone further in extending that list by including one representative of ward sisters to ensure that their particular point of view should be expressed. We have no reason to believe that they will be denied automatic election but we wish to ensure that there is representation of their point of view. We cannot, however, carry this procedure much further; in fact I do not think that we can carry it any further.
Indeed I wonder whether we have not already gone too far. I believe it is wrong to insist that just because representation is granted to certain categories we must therefore automatically go on and give special representation to every other category for which a good claim can be made. I believe that there are other claims that could be made for categories which have not been put down on the Order Paper. It is wrong to work on the assumption that we must ensure by specification in this Bill the representation of every particular viewpoint. If we were to do that, we should need a General Nursing Council very much larger than it is at all practicable to have. We should also, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley (Mr. Diamond) has pointed out, deny the Minister the right which he must have of considering the many claims to 1714 representation that there are, and, in view of the conditions of the time and our developing experience in the nursing world, to make such appointments as he feels are right and proper.
I give my hon. Friend the assurance that we have carefully considered this matter. The fact that we have included one representative of the ward sisters shows our anxiety and desire to see that their viewpoint is expressed. That does not mean that because we give particular representation to one category we must automatically immediately double that representation or possibly treble it; otherwise we shall be placed in a hopeless position. I give my hon. Friend the assurance that, in considering appointments in what I will call the free list within the discretion of the Minister, we are bound to take account of the views expressed here, and the need for representation both by ward sisters and by others, claims for whom have been put down on the Order Paper, who also have a fair claim to representation. We must do our best to see that all these points of view are covered within the powers which the Minister has.

§ Mr. Sorensen
Are we to assume meanwhile that despite what my hon. Friend has said about the undesirability of specifying particular categories, he attaches so much importance to nurses in the National Health Service that he feels that in that case there must be two appointed by him, and that therefore they are more important than ward sisters?

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I strongly deprecate the attempt by hon. Members, which I think is most unfortunate, to try to evaluate the work of particular categories of nurses in this way. They are working as a team and it is quite wrong to insist that one particular category is doing more important work than another.

§ Mr. Sorensen
It is in the Bill.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
They are all doing work of great importance. There is insistence in the Bill on representation for the work of nurses in the local authority field because it is a different kind of work altogether from that being done by other sections which are represented, and it is of the utmost importance that they should be represented.
1715 Because we have provided for special representation in a limited number of cases my hon. Friends must not insist on the gradual expansion of that list and so destroy the whole value of the General Nursing Council. If we were to accept this proposal—and I shall in a moment or two be pressed to accept one or two proposals of a like character—there would be no discretion left to the Minister in making appointments; he could take no account of changes and developments that might take place and we should certainly be building up a Council far too large and unwieldy. In spite of the very real understanding and knowledge which we all have of the work which is being done by ward sisters and every other category of nurse in this field, I hope that hon. Members will not impute to me the motive that we are regarding the ward sister or any other category as less important in the service which they are giving in the general medical field in this country.

§ Mr. Skinnard
I concede that my hon. Friend has tried to be helpful and sympathetic but I wonder whether he would help me a little further in one respect? Does he consider that having a certain number of unallocated places at the Minister's disposal for nomination is a valuable way of balancing any undue preponderence of one type of representation on the elected side? If that is so, can he tell me whether the Minister is to make his appointments before or after the elections, because if the appointments are to be made before the elections the argument does not hold water? If regard is to be had as to the result of the elections before the Minister makes appointments, I will concede that my hon. Friend has made a very good case indeed for elasticity in making the appointments.

§ Mr. Howard
I beg, to move, in page 14, line 16, at the end, to insert: (f) two shall be registered medical practitioners. This is a point of much greater substance. It is not one of what subdivisions of a particular profession shall be represented but of what professions shall be represented. Everyone who has had anything to do with dealing with the sick in hospitals or has had anything to do with nursing will agree that the 1716 best results are obtained only where there is the closest possible working between the medical man and the nurse. We all desire to see that prevail throughout the whole country. It is of the greatest importance that in the case of all these bodies which are considering the general problem of nursing, and particularly the training of nurses, there should be available immediately at hand medical men who are actively engaged in working alongside these people.
2.0 p.m.
I will not say more except that when this point was raised in another place the Government spokesman there made it clear that he took a rather favourable view of the point of view which had been expressed. Naturally, he was guarded in his reply. His actual words were: In the past, medical men have found their way on to these committees, and I think the noble Lord may rest assured that under the new dispensation there will be no change. If the noble Lord can rest assured that under the new dispensation there will be no change, may I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give such an assurance to this Committee, so that we also can rest assured that there will be no change?

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
Here, as has already been mentioned, the practice has always been that in the field of appointments of the Minister, not purely appointments where he has complete discretion, but within the other appointments of the Minister, he has always in the past assured representation of some from the medical profession. We can give this assurance, that there is no intention to depart from that general practice. For the reasons I have already advanced I would rather not tie myself to the insertion of these words in the Bill.
I still wish to ensure liberty of appointment in places which are available to the Minister for appointments; but as I think the hon. Member realises, in the past it has been the practice to make such appointments from those, for example, who have experience in administration and other fields. This is not the only opportunity for the appointment of persons representing the medical profession, but I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that we have every intention of continuing with past practice.

§ Sir H. Lucas-Tooth
The Parliamentary Secretary has given a quite clear assurance, and, of course, we are happy to receive that assurance. But I am not altogether happy to leave the matter as it stands. Apart from the three persons referred to under paragraph (e), and the three vacancies, it is quite clear that the Minister could not appoint doctors to this Council. All the others are nurses—I think that is right. It is true, of course, that there are other persons who are appointed not by the Minister; that is to say three persons by the Minister of Education and two appointed by the Privy Council. I think my hon. Friend made it clear that what we are concerned with is to see that the medical profession is fully represented on the Council. We are not concerned particularly with the precise wording of this Amendment.

§ Dr. Morgan (Rochdale)
But why?

§ Sir H. Lucas-Tooth
I wonder whether the Parliamentary Secretary will give an assurance that he will look into the matter from the angle, not that of these remaining three there should be two members of the medical profession, but that he would so contrive his appointment that there will always be at least two members of the medical profession on the Council?
It may be that some words added to the Bill, either in the body of the Bill or to this Schedule, would bring about that result. It seems to me a little unsatisfactory that in a matter of this major kind we should leave the position at large, and that the representation of the medical community should in fact rest on an assurance given—I do not say this offensively—by the Parliamentary Secretary in this House. It does not seem to be the right method to deal with this matter and if some appropriate words could be found that would probably meet the wishes of both sides of the Committee.

§ Dr. Morgan
I am not at all sure about this point. I fail to see why the medical profession should, by statutory legislation, be included on the General Nursing Council, unless there is to be a reciprocal arrangement by which nurses will be included in the reform Bill of the General Medical Council which is pending. I have read the B.M.A. memorandum on this point with great care. I have read it as a member of the B.M.A. Council and 1718 I shall tell them at the next meeting of the Council that I fail to see why the medical profession should ask to have representation on the General Nursing Council.
It is quite true that some doctors are very specially interested, such as those engaged in the tuition of the nursing profession. But, after all, the General Nursing Council will have certain statutory duties to perform, and I do not see where the medical profession comes in with regard to those duties. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look very closely into this matter, unless he is prepared on some subsequent occasion to give nurses a reciprocal position on the governing body with regard to professional medical education. Many of the people who should be in this Bill—industrial nurses for example—are quite outside its scope. Yet we are allowing what we call the hierarchy of the profession to come into a lower grade and attempt to have representation on the General Nursing Council governing the nursing profession.
I think the Minister might handle this with a little tact, and not pledge himself in this matter. I would be very adverse to seeing the medical profession represented on the General Nursing Council.

§ Mr. Hastings
I beg to move, in page 14, line 16, at the end, to insert: (f) one shall be a person appearing to him to have had experience in the nursing of tuberculosis patients. I feel that the nurses engaged in nursing pulmonary tuberculosis patients have a very special claim for representation on the General Nursing Council. As has already been said, whereas infectious diseases generally are of less and less importance, and of lower and lower mortality as the years go by, one cannot say that as regards tuberculosis. Indeed, the most serious disease of young adult life is tuberculosis of the lung, which causes more deaths between the ages of 15 and 50 than any other disease.
The difficulty is that we cannot get nurses to deal with such cases. I am told that at the present time we have between 5,000 and 6,000 beds in sanatoria which are unstaffed. I feel that those nurses who have had practical experience in nursing this particular disease will be 1719 of the greatest help to the General Nursing Council, and indirectly to the Government, in explaining what is wrong at the present time and in getting more nurses to nurse this important class of case.
Tuberculosis is a peculiar disease. It is true that it is an infectious disease, but it is not infectious only for a short time. The infection may go on for years. Therefore, the nurse has to be trained to protect herself from infection and also to protect the other patients from infection. There is another important point. The psychology of tuberculosis is very curious, because tuberculosis patients change from day to day very rapidly. They are on top of the world one day and right down at the bottom the next. I therefore feel that, as the nursing of pulmonary tuberculosis cases is so specialised and as tuberculosis nurses are in such great demand today, we should be very wise if we provided for that branch of nursing being represented on the General Nursing Council.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I must confess that, of all the claims for special representation, the one that interests me most of all is that which has just been put forward, because it is perfectly true that there are particularly urgent problems in connection with tuberculosis in this country today. If I felt that it was not possible to meet this suggestion in any other way, I should be very much inclined to accept the Amendment.
I feel and hope that increasingly nurses will gain experience in this field as part of their general training. I hope the tendency will be in that direction, and that every possible encouragement will be given to it, including the vaccination arrangements which are already being made. Therefore, I would prefer that we should get the experience of this particular field of nursing from the general representation of nurses which is already provided for, and I believe that we shall do so. For that reason, I ask my hon. Friend not to press this Amendment, which is one with which I have the greatest sympathy and one which I hope we shall be able to meet in other ways.

§ Mr. Diamond
It seems to me that we are not appreciating the full scope of the duties of the General Nursing Council. 1720 Its duty is not only to supervise the training of nurses, but it has put upon it the very difficult duty of maintaining the register and of dealing with human beings who have fallen into human errors and who come before the Council for its decision whether they shall be able to continue carrying out the vocation on which their hearts are set and on which their very economic livelihood also depends. It is a very serious matter for any member of the General Nursing Council to have to deal with, and I can assure my hon. Friends that it always causes the greatest anxiety to every member of the Council.
Therefore, one ought not to ask the Minister to limit his choice. He may feel disposed in future to strengthen the Council by appointing to it those who are experienced in medical nursing and also those with experience in administering justice, such as members of the Law Society, justices of the peace and other magistrates, and other people who have experience in dealing with human beings. The Council has this very difficult duty to perform in addition to other responsibilities.

§ Mr. Hastings
I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for the sympathetic way in which he is considering this Amendment. He pointed out with truth that in future it is to be hoped that all nurses with a general training will have had experience in the nursing of tuberculosis. That is a hope which we all share, but that is not the case at present, and it might be more helpful in bringing about that nappy state of affairs that one or two nurses on the General Nursing Council should have had actual experience of nursing tuberculosis cases. In view of the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary, however, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Diamond
I beg to move, in page 14, line 20, to leave out from the beginning, to the second "and," and to insert: a scheme to be formulated by the Council and approved by the Minister and the. The words at present used in the Schedule seem to be copied directly from the previous Act, and they refer to elections taking place in accordance with the prescribed scheme. Although we have 1721 already accepted an Amendment dealing with the meaning of the word "prescribed," I understand that that Amendment can only be effective where a scheme has already been prescribed, and not in the, case where a scheme has yet to be prescribed. It means that in the case where a scheme will be prescribed in future the rules will be laid before the House. At the moment, the reference to a prescribed scheme simply means, according to the dictionary, a scheme which is "before written." I have searched this Bill to find anything to fit that definition, and I have not succeeded.
It seems to me that we cannot have these words as they stand at present, because there is no scheme which can guide the Council in its election. It is very necessary to find other words for this purpose. Under the procedure which has taken place hitherto, the scheme has been formulated by the Council and approved by the Minister, and that is what is proposed in this Amendment. It is appreciated that, under that arrangement, a scheme which was formulated and approved would not appear before the House, and I, as an hon. Member of the House, am most anxious that the control of the House should extend as far as is reasonably necessary and proper. At the moment, we have no "before written" scheme before us, and the Minister will have to put words into the Bill to enable the Council to know how they are to carry out an election.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I am very willing to have a further look at this matter. It was our intention that there should be an opportunity for the House to see a scheme laid down. Whether that is wholly necessary or not, we feel that, under the changed constitution of the General Nursing Council, it might be of value in future, in view of the particular problem of election that would arise; but I am very willing to examine the matter again and particularly to see whether the wording is adequate to carry out our intentions. If any further variation is needed before Report stage, we will make the necessary alteration.

§ Dr. Morgan
I hope the Minister will not accept this Amendment. I listened very carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley (Mr. Diamond), and he seems to me to be quibbling as 1722 to what is prescribed. The terms of his Amendment are, "a Scheme to be formulated by the Council." The Council is not in existence yet, so how can it formulate something when it is not in being? The election of the Council, according to the Minister, will take place in a prescribed manner. I hope the Minister will go ahead with this scheme. If he cannot do it by regulation he can certainly prescribe it, and if that is done it can be done in a prescribed manner.

§ Mr. Diamond
I have the greatest possible respect for my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Dr. Morgan) and there is a warm friendship between us. However, he was not able to be here earlier when an Amendment was accepted which made it quite clear that "prescribed" does not mean prescribed according to the General Nursing Council. Therefore, I was inviting my hon. Friend to do something more. In view of the Parliamentary Secretary's assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Diamond
I beg to move, in page 14, line 33, after "Council," to insert to be elected in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Schedule. The purpose of this Amendment and that to line 34, which follows, is to ensure that the working of the General Nursing Council shall not be interrupted at any time because the whole of its membership, both elected and appointed, go out of office at the same time. I made this point clear on Second Reading, and I am sure it is not necessary for me to do more than to say that it seems to me that in a body of this sort it would be most undesirable if there should be this possible interruption. The only way of avoiding it would be for those who are elected and those who are appointed to overlap. The way of achieving that is that those who are elected should in no case be interfered with at all, but those who are appointed should be appointed for three years and thereafter for five years. In that event for the first three years those who are 1723 elected and those who are appointed would be serving together and in the next two years there would be some of the originally elected members serving with the newly appointed ones. In this way there would be some members on the new Council who would be members of the previous Council, so that the continuity of the work would be assured.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
We are quite in agreement with the object of this Amendment, though we would like to reconsider the precise form in which it should be carried out. On the understanding that we will bring forward a fresh wording on the Report stage, I trust my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment.

§ Mr. Diamond
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Diamond
I beg to move, in page 15, line 9, after "may," to insert sell mortgage charge lease surrender exchange or otherwise. This is a legal Amendment which is being put forward because the General Nursing Council are advised that the words in the Schedule do not give them the authority to do things which I am sure every Member of the Committee would wish them to have the authority to do. The words at present in the Bill refer to disposing as they think fit of any property acquired by them. I ask my hon. Friend either to accept this Amendment or to give me his assurance that the words as they stand in the Clause do include sell mortgage charge lease surrender exchange or otherwise.

§ Mr. Blenkinsop
I am very glad to be able to give the assurance for which my hon. Friend asks. I am quite clear that these words are included already and are covered in the wording of the Clause.

§ Mr. Diamond
Having regard to that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.