§ The Lord AdvocateI beg to move, in page 36, line 19, to leave out "on licence."
This and the next Amendment go together, and their purpose is to enable prisoners serving a sentence of corrective 1205 training and preventive detention, as well as those serving sentences of imprisonment and Borstal training, to be released temporarily in accordance with rules made by the Secretary of State.
§ Sir T. MoorePerhaps this would be a suitable opportunity, Sir, for me to discuss the question of changing the name of Borstal?
§ Sir T. Moorerose —
Mr. Deputy-SpeakerI have ruled that this is not the appropriate Amendment on which the hon. and gallant Member can raise his point.
§ Sir T. MooreNot if I object to the use of the word "Borstal"?
Mr. Deputy-SpeakerThe hon. and gallant Member is mistaken. We have not arrived at that Amendment yet. We are on the Amendment to line 19.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed: In page 36, line 20, leave out "or detained in a Borstal institution," and insert:
, corrective training, preventive detention, or Borstal training."—[The Lord Advocate.]
§ Sir T. MooreThe Secretary of State in this Amendment wishes to leave out the words "or detained in a Borstal institution." I am inclined to agree with it in that it removes the word "Borstal" from the Clause. This gives me an opportunity to refer to what was agreed to on all sides during the Committee stage, when it was decided that the word "Borstal" should be excluded from our criminal justice phraseology. As I tried to point out earlier, the right hon. Gentleman gave the Committee a definite undertaking that he would find an alternative name to replace the word "Borstal." A day or two ago his secretary telephoned me to say that the Minister had thrown his hand in, that he could not find a suitable name which would not conflict with the English Acts of Parliament. Since when are we being dragged at the heels of England? Have we not made it clear that we are insisting on our own legal code and phraseology, and our own humanity of outlook in these matters of crime?
§ Mr. Brendan Bracken (Bournemouth)Why not use the name "Moorehouse"?
§ Sir T. MooreI want the Minister to implement his undertaking, and say that he will find a word—I am willing to supply him with quite a number—which will demonstrate the loathing and abhorrence we all feel for "Borstal," and the sinister significance it has for all those who have endured Borstal training, and its effect on their relatives and friends.
§ The Lord AdvocateI rise with some hesitation, because in this Amendment we are considering rules, to be made in accordance with the Bill, whereby people should be allowed out of various institutions Accordingly, I do not think that the nomenclature which is being used has any relevance to the Amendment. The hon. and gallant Gentleman made a statement on the question of Borstals, and if you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, think it is in Order to reply to it, I should like to take advantage of the situation to give the House the benefit of our thoughts on this. If that is not in Order, I might do it in the course of the Third Reading.
Mr. Deputy-SpeakerThe word "Borstal" is, of course, mentioned in both the Amendment to leave out and the Amendment to insert. As I understand it, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) objects to the use of the term in this Clause. If the Lord Advocate would word his reply, so as to relate to that point alone and perhaps avoid further discussion, I should be agreeable.
§ The Lord AdvocateI will confine myself within the rules of Order. I have explained why we wished to extend this right of allowing inmates out for a short period to those who occupy the institutions which we shall, for the present, refer to as Borstals. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did not say that he would change the name. What he said was:
I give the Committee the promise that I will look into this again, and see whether we can make any change to meet their wishes."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Scottish Standing Committee, 2nd November, 1949; c. 70.]
§ Sir T. MooreYes, but that is a Parliamentary phrase.
§ The Lord AdvocateThat was the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend, and we have looked into it very 1207 seriously, having regard to the strong representations which were made by hon. Members on all sides of the Committee. The great difficulty—and it is one which even the hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciated—was to get an appropriate alternative. The second difficulty was that even if we were to alter the name in Scotland, it would still have currency, because similar institutions in England are called Borstals. Therefore, we were not getting it out of our lexicon, for it was still remaining there. The third was a purely technical and machinery point. Not only would we have had to make between 70 and 80 alterations in this Bill, but we would have had to make an alteration of the word "Borstal" in many previous Statutes. That is not an insuperable obstacle, but it would be a tedious task.
§ Mr. BrackenWhy not call them "Mac-Borstals"?
§ The Lord AdvocateAccordingly, the next thing to consider was whether we could carry on the existing system, without having all those difficulties, by perpetuating the system we are trying to encourage at the present time of having these institutions known by their geographical names. We came to the conclusion that in all probability the best thing was to encourage the use of the geographical names. This is the important part of my argument. I have a feeling that if we use a generic name, whatever attaches to that generic name will in the course of time, attach itself to the institution. If its reputation is bad, it will attach itself to the place, and if the reputation is good, the question does not arise. We feel that we have in the past tried to associate these institutions with the geographical name, as in the case of Castle Huntly and Polmont, with the idea of removing the offensive nature of the reputation which was associated with them.
It was against that background that we examined the various proposals of hon. Members. The hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested "Paterson Institution." We felt that, while that was meant as a tribute to the late Alexander Paterson, who made a remarkable contribution to the enlightened methods in use in prisons and Borstals, it was not the best way of commemorating his memory; and in any 1208 event he was associated more with England than with Scotland. The Scottish Committee that considered these matters suggested "Approved Training Institutes." The objection to that designation was that an approved training institute implied an approved centre run by one person and approved by another, which would give the wrong impression with regard to the running. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) suggested "Reformative Institution." That was akin to the old reformatory, which we want to get away from. My hon. Friend the Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Willis) suggested "Social Rehabilitation Centre," but we felt that that name did not convey the idea of this particular type of institution. In those circumstances we felt that it had no special relevance to the rehabilitation of adolescents. Someone suggested that we might call them "Latsrob." We think that would be a backward procedure, and we did not adopt it.
§ 6.15 p.m.
§ Mr. BrackenWhat about my suggestion of "Mac-Borstals"?
§ The Lord AdvocateThe suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman would not appeal to the people of Scotland, but we thank him for his help, encouragement and interest.
§ Mr. McKinlayCall them "Bracken Institutes." and we can always burn them down.
§ The Lord AdvocateWe had all these difficulties about nomenclature and machinery, and at the end of the day we felt that the best way of getting rid of the association which these institutions previously had was to depend upon the geographical name, which would enable any of the previous stigma to disappear and allow them to take their proper place in our society. We tried to convey that as soon as possible to the hon. and gallant Gentleman; it was because he was not accessible at the time that he did not hear earlier. We have examined this matter carefully, and for the reasons I have described, it was not found possible to accept the various suggestions.
§ Mr. HaleI should like to make one short observation, and it is that the Amendment appears to me to represent 1209 a very desirable amendment of the law and one which we ought to welcome. However, there is a consequential amendment in page 44, line 15. I appreciate that because of the rules of Order we cannot discuss that now, but I am entitled to ask the Lord Advocate to tell us now, in regard to the sort of Borstal that is envisaged, what sort of rules it is proposed to make for recalling people who are out on licence, what sort of safeguard is to apply, what sort of notice is to be given, and what sort of protection may be available to the person on licence when recalled?
§ The Lord AdvocateI can only speak again with permission of the House. What we have in view with regard to temporary releases is that, as a person approaches the end of his sentence, in order that he can be ready to take his place in society, it may be possible to allow him out for a weekend at a time, thus getting him used to the idea of being back in the world. It can also be used for exceptional cases where, for instance, a near relative dies and it is desirable to let the prisoner attend the funeral. Accordingly, he would be let out on certain conditions, which might vary according to individual cases. They would only be short periods at a time and under such conditions as would be prescribed in the particular order.
§ Amendment agreed to.