HC Deb 01 November 1949 vol 469 cc192-6
33 Mr. Emrys Hughes

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) how the proposed economy reductions are likely to affect Scotland;

(2) what is his estimate of the economy likely to be effected by the proposed penny increase in meals for schoolchildren;

(3) what is his estimate of the sums that will be saved in Scotland by the proposed reductions in conveyance of schoolchildren.

36 and 37. Mr. William Ross

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) how the Scottish hydro-electricity schemes will be affected by the economy measures recently announced;

(2) what effect the Government's economic measures recently announced will have on the Scottish housing programme.

38 and 41. Mr. Willis

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what effects the Government's recently announced economic measures will have in Scotland;

(2) which provisions of the Legal Aid and Solicitors (Scotland) Act will be deferred; and when those remaining will come into operation.

Mr. Woodburn

Scotland will, of course, make its contribution to the economy measures and detailed arrangements for doing so are at present being worked out.

In the fields of capital investment for which I am responsible I anticipate an overall reduction in the rate of investment of the order of £6,000,000. So far as housing is concerned I am satisfied that considerable reductions in the price of houses could be achieved and I propose to effect savings by permitting a larger proportion of three-apartment houses in accordance with local needs and desires and by accepting certain proposals for modifications in design. I must also withdraw the relaxations I made recently in regard to the issue of private licences. By this means I hope that there may be no obstacle to the building of the largest possible number of local authority houses.

As regards hydro-electric development the commencement of work on certan new schemes will be postponed for a period but no interference with existing schemes is contemplated.

Economies are also to be effected in the revenue expenditure of my Department; and those for 1950–51 are being adjusted in the formulation of the estimates for that year. As regards school meals the increase of 1d. on the normal charge of 5d. per meal is expected to save £250,000 in a full year, but pending consultation with local authorities I am not in a position to make any estimate of possible savings in the cost of transport of pupils.

As regards legal aid, I am considering, in consultations with my right hon. and learned Friends, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Lord Advocate, which provisions of the Act should be deferred.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Can arrangements be made to have all these revised Estimates considered by the Scottish Grand Committee?

Mr. Woodburn

That will occur in due course.

Mr. Willis

When consideration of the legal aid scheme is likely to be completed, will my right hon. Friend make an announcement about it, because there is considerable interest in it?

Mr. Woodburn

I quite agree, but hon. Members will understand that any cuts which there are to be, are being made without injuring any of the vital life of the nation and a delicate operation of that kind cannot be done in a rough-shod manner.

Mr. Ross

Is my right hon. Friend proposing to circularise the local authorities with regard to the effect which this announcement will have on their next year's building schemes, and will he tell me if he has considered restricting unnecessary building by reducing the financial limits on work to be done without a licence?

Mr. Woodburn

I would refer my hon. Friend to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in which that point was expressly dealt with.

Colonel Hutchison

As it is clearly impossible to consider the implications of these changes on the Scottish economy from the way the right hon. Gentleman has expressed the matter this afternoon, will he produce them in a more detailed form so that we can consider the effect on housing and trade and all the other effects which they will have?

Mr. Woodburn

They will all come before the House in detailed form as revised Estimates.

Mrs. Jean Mann

Will my right hon. Friend say if local authorities will be able to raise the penny for the extra cost of meals from the rates instead of from the parents?

Mr. Woodburn

I should require notice of that question.

Sir W. Darling

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very considerable volume of public opinion in Scotland considers that Scotland has no dollar deficiency but is a valuable exporter? Has he represented these views to his colleagues in the Cabinet?

Mr. Woodburn

I am sorry to say that in some of these matters some Scottish opinion is not as well informed as I should like it to be.

Sir W. Darling

Will the right hon. Gentleman put before the House figures showing the export surplus, if any, which Scotland has?

Mr. Woodburn

Since a great many of the people who talk about Scottish exports always forget to consider Scottish imports, it is not very easy to satisfy them.

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton

Has the right hon. Gentleman tried to co-ordinate the extent to which the legal aid scheme will be introduced into Scotland with the extent to which it is being introduced into England so that there will be no unfair disparity as between one country and another?

Mr. Woodburn

One of the difficulties about these matters is that the criminal and other procedure in Scotland is entirely different from that in England and that any attempt to assimilate them would make confusion worse confounded.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

Reverting to the supplementary question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison), would it be possible for the Secretary of State to lay before the House some sort of paper showing the effects of this because it will be a long time before the Estimates come out? Are we to understand that the 25,000 cut in housing estimated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not to apply in the case of Scotland?

Mr. Woodburn

The cut mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a financial cut. It was for the purpose of convenience converted into what it meant in terms of housing. It does not necessarily mean a reduction in housing but a saving in housing.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

Does not that make it all the more necessary that the right hon. Gentleman should lay before the House some more detailed information. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a most definite statement that a cut, not in money but in housing, of 25,000 houses would be made. Now we are informed by the Government that that may not be so. Again, I press the right hon. Gentleman to say whether he or the Government as a whole can lay before the House some paper indicating what was really meant by the Chancellor's statement.

Mr. Woodburn

I believe that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is mistaken in the sense that the Estimates of different Ministers deal with the finance of these matters. The question of how that saving is made must be left to be worked out in regard to each case. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it quite clear that the saving would mean practically no alteration to local authority housing. He said there would be no specific or no marked decrease in local authority housing. Therefore, the saving must be worked out in such a way as to comply with that condition.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

Even so, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not make the statement in terms of finance but in terms of houses. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am asking the right hon. Gentleman whether he can elucidate the statement, because I am sure that the House was certainly left under the impression that it was a reduction in numbers of houses? The Minister of Health and others have said most definitely—

Mr. Gallacher

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not your opinion that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is not asking a question but is trying to conduct a cross-examination? Will you call him to Order?

Lieut-Colonel Elliot

Obviously the House is anxious for further information, and I am asking the Secretary of State whether he or the Prime Minister can clear up the matter by laying before the House some statement in figures which the House can consider, because there is obviously great confusion from the verbal statements which have been made.

Mr. Woodburn

I thought that my answer had cleared up any confusion there was in the mind of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister presented a list of savings which would be effected in money terms. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer expanded that in his speech, and in order to convey to hon. Members what £35 million meant on the average price of a house, he gave a figure, but how that saving is to be effected will be worked out in detail. As I have stated, we are hoping that that saving can be effected, in Scotland at least, without interfering with the number of houses which local authorities will build.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

Are we to take it that the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were merely metaphors?