Clause 17.—(ROADS OTHER THAN TRUNK ROADS.) (Hansard, 1 November 1949)

§ Mr. G. Brown
I beg to move, in page 11, line 23, at the end, to insert: (3) In respect of the transfer of land under subsection (1) of this section compensation shall be paid by the highway authority to the Minister and the verderers respectively of the following amounts, that is to say—

(a) in the case of the Minister, of such amount as may be determined by the Minister and the Minister of Transport after consultation with the verderers and with the highway authority to represent the capital loss from the diminution attributable to the transfer in the revenue arising to the Minister from the granting (whether before or after the transfer) of such licences as are referred to in the next following section or from the granting of similar licences before the commencement of this Act;

(b) in the case of the verderers, of such amount as may be so determined to represent the capital loss from the interference with the rights of the commoners."

The explanation of this Amendment is the same as that for the last two Amendments.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
I beg to move, in page 11, line 23, at the end, to insert: (3) A highway authority shall be empowered to construct grids or other similar structures to prevent uncontrolled ingress or egress of animals to or from the forest along the roads leading into or out of the forest: Provided that where such a grid or other similar structure is made across a road, alternative access shall be made available by the provision of a gate or gates alongside the said road. In the New Forest more and more of the smallholders and farmers are going in for T.T. milk production. I am sure the Ministry are as glad to see that as all of us are, but it means that every farm that goes T.T. reduces the number of cattle which can and will be turned out in the Forest. In a year or so it will become a matter of the utmost urgency for the verderers, if the situation continues, to have powers to make the New Forest into a T.T. area. The only way in which that can be done is by a provision such as this, whereby we can put cattle grids across roads.
I am assured that there are three county councils which at the moment have these powers, two in the North of England and one in the South-West. I wish to see the same apply so far as the New Forest is concerned. The Committee will see that the Amendment is purely permissive. It merely allows the highway authority, on the recommendation of the verderers, to have powers to turn the New Forest into a T.T. area, which may well be desirable from the New Forest angle and will, I am certain, be desirable from the Ministry's angle.

§ Mr. G. Brown
I am glad the right hon. Gentleman arrived back in time to hear his hon. and gallant Friend urge us to spend considerable sums of money on work in the New Forest, which will not find favour in the right hon. Gentleman's ears. We see how the position is reversed. I have a good deal of sympathy with this proposition, as I always have with the hon. and gallant Member's better propositions, which he puts forward on too rare and infrequent occasions. To undertake for the whole of the New Forest what is sought by this Amendment will be an enormous and costly undertaking. It is really a matter for the highway authorities to have the power to construct these grids.
277 There has been some discussion on the matter in the House by way of Questions, etc., and the Ministry of Transport have made it quite clear that the highway authorities' powers in this matter are clear—they have the power to do it. My right hon. Friend has made it clear that he would welcome these powers being made clear not only in this case but in the case of Exmoor, for example, where such grids would be a great help. On the whole, however, it would be better to deal with this matter by way of general legislation than to try to deal with it piecemeal in this specific case. I will not, therefore, dissent from any want of sympathy with the idea nor from any general feeling that there is not a good deal in this argument, but we feel that if there is something which requires to be cleared up it should be done in a general way. We have the assurance of the Minister of Transport that at a suitable opportunity he hopes to promote general legislation dealing with this question, and nothing will be lost if I ask the Committee to await that general legislation.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
While I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his reply, it leaves unanswered the point I made. In the New Forest there are these farms which are more and more rapidly turning over to T.T. herds. It is desirable to have general legislation no doubt, but this is something which is coming forward in the near future. If the Parliamentary Secretary can give an assurance that the Minister of Transport will promote legislation in the next Session, I shall be very happy, but if it is merely to be left as a statement that this will be done at a suitable stage, it leaves me slightly less happy.

§ Mr. Brown
I do not mind being in trouble with the hon. and gallant Member or his right hon. Friend, but I should not like to be in trouble with the Leader of the House. I cannot go further than say that the Minister of Transport has said that on a suitable occasion general legislation will be brought before Parliament.

§ Colonel Clarke (East Grinstead)
This question has been in existence for a number of years. In my own county we have had applications to put grids across roads where they come on to commons. I think the Minister of Transport 278 has been very slow in taking the necessary steps to promote legislation. I do not know what is the reason. There is some question of possible damage to vehicles and to other users of the road, but I feel it necessary that some active steps should be taken to expedite the matter. I know that a county council, of the roads and bridges committee of which I am a member, has for three years had this matter on the agenda but it is continually being deferred. I hope that the Minister will take active steps with his right hon. Friend to get something done now that we have this concrete case which will be coming to a head in about a year's time.

§ Mr. W. S. Morrison
We must accept the point of view of the Parliamentary Secretary when he says that this is more suitable for general legislation than for inclusion piecemeal in successive enactments. I should like to reinforce what my hon. and gallant Friends have said about the urgency of this matter and the increase in the number of T.T. herds, and I hope that the Minister of Agriculture will exercise himself and make representations to his right hon. Friend that we should get on with this matter as quickly as we can.

§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre
In view of what the Parliamentary Secretary has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. G. Brown
I beg to move, in page 12, line 4, at the end, to insert: (5) Subsection (2) of this section shall be deemed to have applied as from the commencement of this Act to any land as to which a direction under the last foregoing subsection is given, and as respects any such land compensation of such amount shall be paid by the highway authority to the verderers as may be determined by the Minister and the Minister of Transport, after consultation with the verderers and highway authority, to represent the capital loss from interference with the rights of the commoners by anything done or to be done on the land after the commencement of this Act. This and the following Amendment have again been omitted from the Bill up to this stage for reasons of Privilege.