Clause 3.—(LEVY OF DOMESTIC WATER RATE ON AGRICULTURAL SUBJECTS.) (Hansard, 4 May 1949)

§ Mr. Woodburn
I beg to move: "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This part of the Clause is being replaced in the Bill, and the Amendment is simply to secure a re-adjustment.

§ Mr. Spence (Aberdeen and Kincardine, Central)
May I have some explanation as to why this part of the Clause should be lifted bodily and transferred, word for word, to a later part of the same Bill?

§ Mr. Woodburn
This part of the Bill deals with the domestic water supply, and it is being taken to another part where it more properly belongs.

§ Mr. Spence
This part deals not only with the domestic, but also with the agricultural water supply, and some of us are concerned with the exact basis on which we are to be rated for water supply. To take an example, a farm with 150 head of cattle, may use a million gallons of water a year and it is important that we should differentiate between the domestic and the agricultural water rates; I cannot understand why this part has been transferred to the end of the Bill.

§ Mr. Woodburn
It is only from the point of view of drafting that it has been put in a more appropriate part of the Bill.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Elliot
The right hon. Gentleman is not, then, following the precedent just put through the House by the English Minister of Health's Department and attempting to go back on the principle that domestic water rate should not be charged except to anyone who has used the supply? He is acting in sharp contradistinction to the idea imposed on the unhappy English citizen who has to pay for water which he has not received and which he is not likely to receive.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment: In page 9, line 33, at end, insert new Clause "A" (Temporary provisions as to defrayal of expenses where requisite information, etc., not available.) 1177

(1) If the Secretary of State, on a representation made to him by one of the authorities concerned, is satisfied that it will be impracticable for a supplying authority, notwithstanding the exercise by them of all due diligence, to obtain the information required to enable them in the year beginning on the appointed day to allocate within the required time their expenses in supplying water in the district or part of the district of another local authority and in their own district in manner provided by subsection (2) of section eleven of this Act and to furnish such information as under subsection (5) of section twelve of this Act they may be required to furnish, he may, subject to the provisions of this section, make an order modifying the provisions of this Part of this Act in relation to the defrayal of the expenses of that supplying authority.

(2) An order made under this section shall provide that the expenses of the supplying authority in supplying water in the district or part of the district of another local authority and in their own district shall in the year beginning on the appointed day be defrayed—

(a) as to such part of the said expenses as is equal to the total product of the water rate levied by the supplying authority in the district of that other authority in the year beginning on the sixteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and forty-eight, by that other authority; and

(b) as to the remainder of the said expenses, by the supplying authority.

(3) An order made under this section shall provide for the issue by the supplying authority to any other authority to whom part of the said expenses are under the order allocated as aforesaid, of a requisition for the payment by that other authority of that part of the said expenses and any requisition so issued shall have the like force and effect as a requisition issued under subsection (2) of section eleven of this Act: Provided that notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act any domestic water rate levied by a local authority to whom a requisition is issued in pursuance of an order made under this section shall in so far as it falls to be levied in respect of premises within the limits of supply of the supplying authority be levied only in respect of premises in respect of which a water rate was levied by the supplying authority in the year beginning on the sixteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and forty-eight.

(4) Where a supply of water for domestic purposes was provided in the year beginning on the sixteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and forty-eight, by a supplying authority to premises in the district of another local authority and no payment otherwise than by way of a charge calculated by reference to the amount of water consumed or payable under an agreement or otherwise was recovered in that year by the supplying authority in respect of that supply, an order made under this section in relation to the defrayal of the expenses of that supplying authority shall provide that, notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act or in the principal Act, the supplying authority shall, for the purpose of defraying that part of their said expenses falling to be 1178 defrayed by them, be entitled to recover in the year beginning on the appointed day a charge calculated or payable as aforesaid in respect of that supply.

(5) An order made under this section may contain such incidental, consequential and supplementary provisions as the Secretary of State may consider necessary or expedient for the purposes of the order.

§ Mr. Woodburn
I beg to move: "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This is introduced to meet the difficulties of local authorities which happen to have found themselves in a rather complicated position because of the nonexistence of information necessary to carry out the Act in time; it also makes certain adjustments.

Mr. McKie (Galloway)
Before we add this Clause to the Bill a word of thanks should be said to the Secretary of State. He will remember that in the Committee stage points were put by the Opposition regarding the necessity of introducing some words whereby the position of local authorities should be safeguarded as they are now going to be. I understand this new Clause is being inserted at the express desire of the City Council of Dundee, but there are many other local authorities, some of them small, which are in the same position of supplying water to other authorities outwith the boundaries of the authority concerned. It would have been very difficult for them to comply with the conditions in the short time available. I and the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson) are in the same position as far as that is concerned, and I am sure he would agree that I am expressing our joint thanks to the Secretary of State, not only for having been so good as to include this Clause, but also for having seen the wisdom of the advice tendered him by the Opposition, and for having met the various requests which have been made by the local authorities.
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 21, at end insert new Clause "B" (Provisions as to supply of water to agricultural subjects):

(1) Where a supply of water for purposes other than domestic purposes is provided for premises being agricultural lands and heritages, the local water authority shall require the supply to be taken either by meter or on 1179 other specified terms as they may from time to time in their discretion determine.

(2) Where a local water authority supply water by meter for purposes other than domestic purposes to any premises being agricultural lands and heritages and also supply water for domestic purposes to any dwelling house comprised in such premises, the authority shall, if it is reasonably practicable so to do, provide the whole supply of water to such premises and dwelling house through a single meter.

(3) The duty imposed by subsection (1) of this section upon a local water authority shall, in relation to premises being agricultural lands and heritages on the appointed day, be exercised by them as soon as may be after the appointed day and in any case not later than the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and fifty-four.

§ Mr. Woodburn
I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

§ Mr. Niall Macpherson (Dumfries)
The right hon. Gentleman has taken three subsections out of one part of the Bill and is now trying to put them back in another. We are obliged to him for giving us the opportunity of reconsidering this matter. The fact is that farmers are only just beginning to realise what this Measure is going to mean to them. Under the 1929 Act they pay water rate on 12½ per cent. of the rateable value of their land, so a farm worth £200 will pay water rate on £25, which at 3s. in the £ is £3 15s. They are very perplexed at the fact that there is no guidance to the local authorities as to what the charge for the meter rate may be, or what other alternative arrangement—"other specified terms" as the Clause says—may mean. If the water rate remains as it is, in some cases they might find their present water rate multiplied something like 100 times, and that alarms them considerably. I agree that de-rating was a measure to assist a depressed industry, and I agree that since the National Government came into being in 1931, and progressively since then, the farmers have gradually got away from that depressed state and have now ceased to be a depressed industry.
I also agree that the greatest economy should be fostered in the use of water, and there are many ways in which that can be promoted. But not in all cases. For example, in dairy farming it is not possible in the washing of bottles. I am informed by experts that during the summer time cows drink 20 gallons a 1180 day, and that, I understand, cannot be recovered. I am also told that a herd of 100 dairy cows would consume at least half a million gallons of water per year. I do not mean to say that they consume it bodily, but that is the amount required for a herd of that type. Some compensation should be made to the farmers for what is bound to be a very considerable increase in their charges, and for that reason we are now seeking an assurance that in the guaranteed prices fixed for farmers in the future, particularly for the dairying industry, this additional charge, which is likely to be very heavy, is taken into account.

§ Mr. Woodburn
All I can say is that in the fixing of these prices all the interests of farmers are carefully gone into and full justice is done to them.

Mr. McKie
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will profit by the words addressed to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson). It is usual in these circumstances to disclose one's personal interest. I am interested in dairy farming, and I can confirm almost everything that my hon. Friend has just said. The consumption of water in Scotland has been increasing considerably over a long period of years. I know that some people in this House and outside find it hard to realise it, but I am assured that it is so.
As regards the vital industry of dairying, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take to heart the plea which has been made by my hon. Friend. It is the desire of this Government, as it was of previous Governments, and as it must be the desire of every succeeding Government, to maintain and indeed to increase the dairy production of this country. We cannot possibly have an efficient dairy industry, and produce milk in the way it ought to be produced, and avoid serious disease or illness amongst the people of this country, without an adequate supply of pure water—

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. James Callaghan)
Hear, hear!

Mr. McKie
I do not know why the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport should find anything mirthful in that remark. If he was as well acquainted with the day-to-day affairs of 1181 the countryside as I am he would not be so ready to jeer. In all seriousness I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that he should take to heart the warnings which have been addressed to him. As I was about to say—and I will say it now when the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport is in a more reasonable frame of mind—we cannot possibly have proper dairy production in this country, with due cleanliness, unless we have the adequate supply of pure water to which my hon. Friend has just referred.
The right hon. Gentleman must also take seriously to heart this question of mounting costs of production. It is all very well to ride off, as the right hon. Gentleman has attempted to do, by saying, "We are taking all these things into consideration." In the past we have had many instances of Governments of varying political complexions saying just the same kind of thing. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will live up to—if that is the right expression—this expressed desire, more worthily than some of his predecessors. It is all very well to say that the prices for farmers are in a satisfactory position at the present time. They are. But the costs of production are mounting, and the right hon. Gentleman will be well advised—because so far as Scotland is concerned he is the Minister of Agriculture—to take all this into serious consideration when the time conies, as it does month by month and year by year, to revise the scale of payment to the dairy farmer, and also assure him of the supply of pure water which is essential for the industry, so that not merely should the farmers be helped, but that the public should have that efficient supply of water it is the intention of the Government always to guarantee.