ROYAL OBSERVATORY (TRANSFER) (Hansard, 25 March 1949)

§ Mr. Hollis (Devizes)
Last week the House debated a project which, it was alleged, would make English a universal language. This afternoon I wish to call the attention of the House to a small matter in which the English language has almost been a universal language for 200 years and in which we are now in grave danger of losing our position of prestige. Since the time of King Charles II, since the Royal Observatory was founded in 1675 and started off by Flamsteed, the meridian of Greenwich has been a world standard for navigation and the English astronomy of Greenwich observers has been the leading astronomy of the world.
Immediately before the war a situation had already arisen where, owing to the growth of industrialism and smoke and the proximity of a tramway station, it was necessary to move observation from Greenwich to some other place. At that time, just when that decision was being taken, there came the inevitable interruption of observation caused by the war when, obviously, the instruments had to be dismantled. In 1946, after the war ended, the decision was taken to move the observers to Hurstmonceux. That is the situation I want to discuss this afternoon. Let me make it clear that I am not challenging the necessity to move from Greenwich nor the necessity to move to Hurstmonceux.
I am raising two other issues arising from that move. First, I want to press the Civil Lord on the present position of observation in this country during this intermediate period. Unfortunately, following the inevitable interruption during the war, there is now this intermediate 803 period in which very little scientific observation is going on in this country. I shall not delay the House by giving full details but shall give merely a few examples. First, the reversible transit circle needs resetting. It is not worth while resetting it in its temporary quarters at Greenwich and, therefore, the work is lagging behind. The equatorial mountings on the refractor telescopes are kept in store because there is no place for them now at Greenwich and the place for them at Hurstmonceux is not yet ready. The quartz clocks are kept at Abinger, quite remote from the other work at Hurstmonceux. The eight-inch transit circle which was presented to this country by the generosity of the Government of Victoria when war ended has not yet been erected.
Without going info all the details I can, perhaps, sum up most satisfactorily the present unsatisfactory state of affairs in the words of Dr. Atkinson, the chief assistant of the Observatory, who, speaking of the instruments at present in use in this country, says: There is not one which is both adequately modern in design and working under reasonable conditions, although in the case of the solar department, which is being moved in stage one, this unsatisfactory condition will obtain for only a few more months. The most important of all his remarks relates to something traditionally associated with Greenwich from the time of Charles II onwards, during which 300 years Greenwich observations on the planets and the stars have lead the world. Dr. Atkinson reports: This field is one in which the Royal Observatory has taken a leading part ever since its foundation in 1675. It is certainly not doing so now. I do not think it can be denied that there is a serious situation from the point of view of observation avid that has a serious consequence, which is that a number of people who indulge in this highly skilled profession is obviously extremely limited and the position has been that there has been a number of senior astronomers who have always kept out junior astronomers. Owing to the breakdown of the observations, only about one-tenth of the number of people normally trained are being trained now, and there is a grave danger that the whole position will collapse.
What I press on the Government, therefore, is that the work at Hurst- 804 monceux should be given an extremely high priority instead of a low priority and pushed forward with all despatch, so that this inevitable gap through the coincidence of the necessity of transfer caused by the war should be made as short as possible, rather than allowed to stretch out to some such period as 15 years. That would have a disastrous effect on the standard of astronomy in this country and lose us the position of prestige which we have held for 300 years. Other countries would take that position and we should never be able to regain it. I am informed that the cost of the building necessary to put Hurstmonceux into full commission would come to about £500,000. I do not know whether the Civil Lord to the Admiralty can confirm that, or not. I do not contend that it is a figure to be sniffed at, but there are few matters on which the prestige of this country has been more highly valued than in the position of the Meridian of Greenwich and few matters on which such a sum could be better spent.
At present the only building at Hurstmonceux nearing completion is the solar building. The astronomical library is there, but is of little practical use, for the astronomers of the country are scattered all over the country at present. From the scientific point of view these are all points I would urge on the Government. The highest priority should be given by the Government and the Admiralty to the building at Hurstmonceux as rapidly as possible, in order to reduce those two enormous evils with which we are threatened—on the one hand that there should be this disastrous gap in observation, while obviously, if a number of years elapse in the observational records of the Observatory, its scientific usefulness would be greatly diminished. From that point of view it is enormously important that the gap should be reduced as much as possible and it is enormously important that the gap should be reduced as much as possible in order that there should be an adequate amount of work for the young astronomers so that they can train and so that a great national tradition should be kept going and not lost.
I make those points from the scientific point of view for the consideration of the Civil Lord, but two quite separate sets of problems are raised. On the one 805 hand, there is the scientific astronomical problem for which we press for a solution; and, secondly, there is the artistic problem of Hurstmonceux itself. As I say, I am not opposing the transfer to Hurstmonceux, although no one can be more devoted to medieval architecture. But, we live in the 20th century and cannot demand that no use should be made of a building simply because of beauty. We must use a medieval building for the purposes of the 20th century, so I am not complaining, as some Ruskinians might complain, that a medieval building is being used for a modern purpose. On the other hand, it is obviously only common sense that it should be used in such a way as to do as little damage as possible to its artistic nature. We have in Hurstmonceux what is perhaps the most remarkable mediaeval castle in this country.
At present little of the new building which will be necessary to turn it into an observatory has taken place. On the contrary, at present on the south side of the castle there are a number of unsightly temporary huts, some in brick, some in wood, which are being used for various semi-scientific purposes. The Admiralty are not to be blamed for the existence of those huts; they did not put them there. I should, however, like a firm guarantee that the Admiralty will take them away as soon as that can be done. It is one of the horrible habits of these unsightly temporary buildings that they sometimes go on from year to year until people think of them as having become permanent. I hope that we shall have the fullest guarantee that they shall be removed in the near future.
As for the more permanent buildings which must take their place, there is a certain problem which I hope will be borne in mind, the difficulty that these buildings cannot of their nature be of the same artistic style as the castle. Therefore, it is necessary that they should be screened from the castle. It is certainly a difficult but not an insoluble problem to deal with by planting trees around them, because free observation is necessary from these buildings for the scientific purposes for which they are to be used. I should like the fullest guarantee from the Civil Lord of the Admiralty that the Royal Fine Art Commission has been kept in full consultation in what 806 is being done. It seems to me that the solution is that these buildings should be built round the west side of the castle, where the garage is at present, and where there is an avenue of Spanish chestnuts by which they can be adequately screened from the castle I should like an assurance from the Civil Lord that that problem is being borne in mind, and will he solved in that way or in some similar way.
I shall not delay the House longer although I could go into great detail on the important scientific problems which are raised by this transfer. We are entitled to complain that the Admiralty have up to the present given this matter not nearly so high a priority as they should have Oven to it. I hope that as a result of this Debate we shall receive assurances from the Government Front Bench that a high priority shall be given to the work in the future, and that it will be pushed forward with such rapidity that there is not this disastrous gap in our astronomical history.

§ Major Tufton Beamish (Lewes)
My hon. Friend has done a public service by raising this matter today. So has "The Times" by drawing attention to it in past months. I am sorry that there is no representative of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning here because this is a matter which much affects that Ministry. It so happens that Hurstmonceux Castle is on the border of the reconstituted Lewes constituency, for which I have just had the honour to be adopted as Conservative candidate. I wish briefly to raise one or two local issues.
It is obvious to us in Sussex, that mistakes have been made in the transfer of the Royal Observatory, and that these mistakes should not have been made. We have noticed that they have led to some unjustified criticism of the very high quality staff engaged in the work of this observatory. Sussex is very proud of Hurstmonceux Castle as a superb, historic and beautiful building in most lovely surroundings. We are glad to welcome the Royal Observatory to this new site. From a planning point of view many people feel sore that the Royal Fine Art Commission was not consulted in the first instance. We hope that its advice is now to be taken. 807 There is also a good deal of local feeling at the failure of the Admiralty to consult or take into their confidence the East Sussex County Council planning committee, a most capable body, or the Hailsham Rural District Council, the local authority in whose territory Hurstmonceux Castle is. This local authority is very much alive to its responsibilities. In this connection I hope that the Minister will give an assurance today that both these local bodies will be fully consulted at all stages.
Finally, as my hon. Friend said, we are in danger of losing the very high regard in which this country is held throughout the world from a scientific, astronomical point of view. The Admiralty have a big responsibility to act with the same speed and efficiency in this matter as that with which they would act if they were designing and launching a new battleship, if I may use that analogy. If the Admiralty will live up to these responsibilities—and we feel that they will—I can assure them that they will have the full co-operation and all possible help from the local bodies concerned. I look forward to a satisfactory reply from tie Civil Lord.

§ The Civil Lord to the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards)
I am quite certain that hon. Members present, as well as those who will read the OFFICIAL REPORT, will be extremely interested in the opening part of the speech of the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis). In fact, I do not think the Astronomer-Royal, if I may say so, could have described the situation in a better way. With quite a lot of what he said; I am in the greatest agreement. It is perfectly true, that, from the astronomical point of view, we have suffered a setback as a result of the war, and the conditions which prevail around Greenwich have for some years made the Admiralty think that another place must be found. I am quite certain, however, that the hon. Member for Devizes will not blame the Admiralty for the fact that nothing was done in this respect during the war. In fact, he went so far as to say that le did not blame us for that.
It was in 1946 that the Admiralty gave this extremely important matter consideration. We realise that it is im- 808 portant, but I am quite certain the House will appreciate that it takes some little time to find the most desirable place. It was actually 1947 before everything had been arranged and work could be considered. I want the House to understand that, with the necessary consents here and there, and the design, it takes some time to get a project of this description in progress, but I would assure the House that we have this matter very much in mind.
We have planned that it should be done in three stages because of the fact that there has to be removal from one place to another, and the first stage should be completed at the end of next month. The proposals for the second stage are in hand at the moment and would say, in connection with the reference to the Royal Fine Art Commission, that it was the Admiralty's desire and intention to discuss the important features of this project with the Commission at the appropriate time. It was not felt that the early part of stage one, which concerned the adaptation of the castle for the Astronomer-Royal's residence and the solar observatory, was the appropriate time, but we have been in touch with the Royal Fine Art Commission and, in fact, officials from that Commission are visiting the site on 2nd April with Admiralty officials to consider stage two with them.
I want to take this opportunity—because my attention has been drawn to it by the Chairman of the Royal Fine Art Commission—to refer to an error in my reply to Questions recently, when I said the relations between the Admiralty and the Commission on this project were perfectly happy. He tells me that "perfectly happy" is not quite the right term, although in the correspondence which I saw before that I found nothing to suggest that they were unhappy. I am certain that the Chairman of the Commission will be satisfied now that I have made that statement for him.
The hon. Member for Devizes mentioned that a period of 15 years would elapse before we should be able to get the Observatory into a proper state. I assure him that at the Admiralty we are not so pessimistic.

§ Mr. Hollis
I think I referred to a period of 15 years including the war years.

§ Mr. Edwards
Even counting the war, it might be a little under 15 years. We have paid great attention to this matter. The Civil Engineer-in-Chief's department has been confronted with many problems, including the provision of married quarters for naval ratings, and that is something new since the war. All sorts of other works problems have also had to be faced. While we have not been able to give priority No. 1 to this work, we have given it most careful consideration. I am endeavouring to take steps which will at least speed up the completion of the project and which may even bring it forward earlier than the target date at the end of 1953.
As has been said, it is a project which, for the work alone, involves a sum in the region of £500,000. I am certain that the House would not expect me to commit myself, or my successors, as to the amount of money which can be found for this project in the Navy Votes in successive years. The Admiralty are fully alive to the whole situation and we want to get down to the job of completing the work as soon as possible.
I have dealt with the artistic aspect. I think that all authorities in the country are satisfied that the Admiralty will take 810 the Royal Fine Art Commission fully into confidence before either the second or third stage is undertaken. The last question I am called upon to answer is the one about consultation with the local authorities in the area. I am told that the East Sussex County planning officer was shown the plans as far as they have gone at present—it should be realised that the plans are in a very early stage—at a meeting of the Hailsham Rural District Council. I am prepared to consider the suggestion that we can take them completely into consultation on this question. If there is no real obstacle, provided that it will not delay the scheme by causing it to go before too many authorities, I will be sympathetic towards that suggestion.
I trust that the explanation I have given will satisfy the House that we have this matter fully in mind. We realise, as do hon. Members, the sense of urgency. I can give the assurance that I shall do everything to speed up the work and to get it completed as soon as possible.