§ Lords Amendment: In page 4, line 18, leave out "or club."
§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede)I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment can be properly discussed with the next two Amendments on the Order Paper, namely, in lines 22 and 25. The effect of these three Amendments would be to deprive the State management scheme of any control over new registrations of clubs in areas under State management. Some regard must be paid to the number of club registrations in State managed areas for clearly if an unlimited number of clubs could spring up, there would be no limit to the facilities for drinking, and it would be impossible to plan the arrangements for the supply of drink on any reasonable basis. It would obviously be necessary to refuse authority if an attempt were made to plaster a new town with an excessive number of registered clubs. Therefore, it is essential to retain the requirement that, as regards new clubs and existing unregistered clubs, the authority of the Secretary of State should be required for the supply of intoxicating liquors. It is also important to retain the power to attach conditions to authorisations for clubs.
As I said in Standing Committee at the seventh Sitting, I have had some correspondence with the Club and Institute Union as to the conditions to be attached, and I gather that they are satisfied with the assurances I have been able to give them. However, both the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself made it clear in the same Debate that the attachment of conditions is still a matter which must be considered in the light of the circumstances of each case as it arises.
9.45 p.m.
In dealing with the supply of liquor, it will not do to overlook the problem of proprietary clubs. No Government has been able to draw a line between genuine members' clubs and questionable proprietary clubs. The Royal Commission which attempted to solve most of the 2381 insoluble problems with regard to this matter gave up this particular one. In these circumstances, the possibilities cannot be ignored of a club to which an authorisation has been granted getting into wrong hands and, for example, setting out to supply drink on the basis of easy membership during the afternoon break when public houses are closed. I have reviewed the conditions which were attached to some of the licences in the Carlisle area and I have come to the conclusion that they are unduly oppressive, and they will be waived in the case of any future clubs.
I am not without experience in this matter, for I have been a member of one club or another connected with the Workmen's Club and Institute Union for the past 50 years. I have been the active president of one club and also attached to the British Legion for the last 30 years, and I know the problems that confront those running respectable working men's clubs. It is highly desirable that we should take such steps as we can in these new areas to ensure that they are not overrun with disreputable clubs and that the good name of the best clubs can be preserved. I know that in another place it was suggested that it would be very wrong for a Conservative Secretary of State, if ever there is another one, to have to consider an application from a Socialist club, and that equally a Socialist Secretary of State might find it difficult to grant a registration for a Conservative club.
§ Colonel Wheatley (Dorset, Eastern)There never will be another Socialist Secretary of State.
§ Mr. EdeThe hon. and gallant Gentleman makes an unconditional prophecy, which is always a very dangerous thing. My statement was merely conditional. I do not think, however, that that is the experience of administration of this and other matters and I have no doubt myself that these applications, no matter which party are in power, will receive consideration on a judicial basis and that the proper answer will be given having regard to the needs of the area which it is proposed that the club shall serve.
These are the only Amendments to which I am asking the House to disagree. All the others have been carried through by agreement. Most of them 2382 redeem pledges I gave during the latter stages of the passage of the Bill in this House and I think it is reasonable to ask the Lords to reconsider their attitude upon this particular group of Amendments.
Mr. Grimtston (Westbury)I hardly think it is a sufficient reason for disagreeing with this series of Amendments that they are the only ones with which the Home Secretary is asking the House to disagree. I have another point of view to put forward. If these Amendments are disagreed to, the position will be, as the Home Secretary has said, that he will have complete control over what clubs shall open in the new town areas and over the conditions under which they shall open. We believe that that is objectionable, for reasons which I shall give.
It should be remembered that there are many different types of clubs. There are the political clubs, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred; there are clubs such as those of the British Legion, and in many areas there are other social clubs also. We believe that control by the Secretary of State over the opening and running of these clubs is objectionable for three reasons. First, there is the question of political pressure, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, and I agree with him. I am sure the average Home Secretary would not try to operate this power to suppress political clubs advancing his political beliefs, but a curious incident happened in Carlisle in 1946, I am advised. The Conservative Club in a certain district in Carlisle applied for permission to go to the licensing justices for a licence and this was refused. The ground on which it was refused, apparently, was that if the Conservative Club got it, it would be unreasonable to withhold it from the Liberal and Socialist clubs, if they wanted it.
I am astonished at the idea that we should try to prohibit all political parties having clubs in a certain area, and I do not understand that point of view. It was suggested that if the club called itself "constitutional" and not "Conservative" the application might be looked upon more favourably. I put it to the House that it is really intolerable that the great political parties, or one of the great political parties, should be refused permission 2383 to apply for a licence because, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, it is undesirable for three political parties to have clubs. Considering that in almost every other area in the country that is more or less the rule, it seems monstrous that this idea should be introduced into the State Management districts.
There is another reason, that the Secretary of State, in granting permission to a club to open, may be influenced by considerations of competition with his own business. Here he is acting as judge and jury in his own case, and I think that is a formidable objection. We are not suggesting that there should be unlimited right of getting licences for clubs, as the Home Secretary suggested. We are suggesting that application should have to be made to the licensing justices, but that they should be the arbiters and not the Secretary of State, who has a competitive interest in the area.
There is a third reason why we object to this unlimited control in these areas being in the hands of the Secretary of State. That is on the rather broader ground of interference by a nationalised monopoly in the social wishes of a community, if people want to have various social clubs. It may be that, in the case
§ of many clubs, if they do not have a licence they will find it very difficult to carry on, not because drinking is the main part of their business, but because it is ancillary to it and helps it along in more ways than one. But if a nationalised monopoly can say, "We will not allow you to have things which have been for many years and are now enjoyed in other parts of the country," that is a matter we cannot understand.
§ We think the matter should go before the licensing justices and, if people want to form a club and can satisfy the licensing justices of their bona fides and that they fulfil the social desires of people in the district, they should have the licence. It should not be open to the Secretary of State, for political reasons, for reasons of fear of competition in his own trade, or because a nationalised monopoly can interfere with the wishes of the community, to refuse licences for these clubs. For those three reasons, I shall ask my hon. Friends to vote against the Motion.
§ Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 297; Noes, 106.
2387| Division No. 242.] | AYES | [9.55 p.m. |
| Acland, Sir R. | Brown, George (Belper) | Driberg, T. E. N. |
| Adams, Richard (Balham) | Brawn, T. J. (Ince) | Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich) |
| Albu, A. H. | Burden, T. W. | Dumpleton, C. W. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. | Burke, W. A. | Dye, S. |
| Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) | Callaghan, James | Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Carmichael, James | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty) |
| Anderson, A. (Motherwell) | Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Edwards, John (Blackburn) |
| Andersen, F. (Whitehaven) | Champion, A. J. | Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) |
| Attewell, H. C. | Chetwynd, G. R. | Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) |
| Austin, H. Lewis | Cocks, F. S. | Evans, A. (Islington, W.) |
| Awbery, S. S. | Coldrick, W. | Evans, John (Ogmore) |
| Ayles, W. H. | Collick, P. | Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) |
| Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. | Collindridge, F. | Ewart, R. |
| Bacon, Miss A. | Collins, V. J. | Farthing, W. J. |
| Baird, J. | Colman, Miss G. M. | Fernyhough, E. |
| Balfour, A. | Comyns, Dr. L. | Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. | Cook, T. F. | Follick, M. |
| Barstow, P. G. | Cooper, G. | Foot, M. M. |
| Barton, C. | Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.) | Forman, J. C. |
| Battley, J. R. | Corlett, Dr. J. | Fraser, T. (Hamilton) |
| Bechervaise, A. E. | Cullen, Mrs. A. | Freeman, John (Watford) |
| Benson, G. | Daggar, G. | Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. |
| Berry, H. | Daines, P. | Ganley, Mrs. C. S. |
| Bing, G. H. C. | Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) |
| Binns, J. | Davies, Edward (Burslem) | Gibbins, J. |
| Blackburn, A. R. | Davies, Ernest (Enfield) | Gibson, C. W. |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Gilzean, A. |
| Blyton, W. R. | Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.) | Glanville, J. E. (Consett) |
| Boardman, H. | Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Gooch, E. G. |
| Bottomley, A. G. | Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood) |
| Bowden, H. W. | Deer, G. | Grenfell, D. R. |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge) | de Freitas, Geoffrey | Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) |
| Braddock, T. (Mitcham) | Diamond, J. | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) |
| Brook, D. (Halifax) | Dobbie, W. | Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side) |
| Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) | Dodds, N. N. | Guest, Dr. L. Haden |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Donovan, T. | Gunter, R. J. |
| Guy, W. H. | Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) | Smith, Ellis (Stoke) |
| Haire, John E. (Wycombe) | Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) | Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Hale, Leslie | Marquand, Rt. Hon H. A. | Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.) |
| Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil | Mathers, Rt. Hon. G. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Hamilton, Lt.-Col. R. | Mellish, R. J. | Sparks, J. A. |
| Hannan, W. (Maryhill) | Messer, F. | Steele, T. |
| Hardman, D. R. | Middleton, Mrs. L. | Stewart, Michael (Futham, E.) |
| Hardy, E. A. | Mikardo, Ian | Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Harrison, J. | Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R. | Stross, Dr. B. |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Mitchison, G. R. | Stubbs, A. E. |
| Haworth, J. | Morley, R. | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith |
| Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) | Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.) | Swingler, S. |
| Herbison, Miss M. | Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Hobson, C. R. | Mort, D. L. | Symonds, A. L. |
| Holman, P. | Natly, W. | Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield) |
| Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) | Neal, H. (Claycross) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Horabin, T. L. | Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N) | Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet) |
| Houghton, Douglas | Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) | Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare) |
| Hoy, J. | Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford) | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Hubbard, T. | Noel-Buxton, Lady | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Oldfield, W. H. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Orbach, M. | Timmons, J. |
| Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) | Paget, R. T. | Titterington, M. F. |
| Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Tolley, L. |
| Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.) | Palmer, A. M. F. | Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G. |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Pannell, T. C. | Ungoed-Thomas, L. |
| Janner, B. | Pargiter, G. A. | Usborne, Henry |
| Jeger, G. (Winchester) | Parker, J. | Viant, S. P. |
| Johnston, D. H. | Parkin, B. T. | Walkden, E. |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley) | Pearson, A. | Walker, G. H. |
| Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) | Piratin, P. | Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.) |
| Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) | Poole, Cecil (Lichfield) | Warbey, W. N. |
| Jones, Jack (Bolton) | Popplewell, E. | Watkins, T. E. |
| Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) | Porter, E. (Warrington) | Watson, W. M. |
| Keenan, W. | Porter, G. (Leeds) | Webb, M. (Bradford, C) |
| Kendall, W. D. | Price, M. Philips | Weitzman, D. |
| Kenyon, C. | Pritt, D. N. | Wells, P. L. (Faversham) |
| Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Pryde, D. J. | Wells, W. T. (Walsall) |
| King, E. M. | Randall, H. E. | West, D. G. |
| Kinley, J. | Ranger, J. | Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. T. (Edinb'gh, E.) |
| Kirby, B. V. | Rankin, J. | White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D. | Reeves, J. | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| Lavers, S. | Reid, T. (Swindon) | Wigg, George |
| Lee, F. (Hulme) | Richards, R. | Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B. |
| Levy, B. W. | Ridealgh, Mrs. M. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) | Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) |
| Lewis, J. (Bolton) | Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) | Willey, O. G. (Cleveland) |
| Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) | Williams. D. J. (Neath) |
| Lindgren, G. S. | Rogers, G. H. R. | Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) |
| Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) |
| Logan, D. G. | Royle, C. | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) |
| Lyne, A. W. | Segal, Dr. S. | Williams, W. R. (Heston) |
| McAdam, W. | Shackleton, E. A. A. | Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) |
| McAllister, G. | Sharp, Granville | Willis, E. |
| McEntee, V. La T. | Shawcross, C. N. Widnes) | Wilmot, Rt. Hon J. |
| McKay, J. (Wallsend) | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. | Wise, Major F. J. |
| Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.) | Shurmer, P. | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| McKinlay, A. S. | Silverman, J. (Erdington) | Woods, G. S. |
| Maclean, N. (Govan) | Silverman, S. S. (Nelson) | Wyatt, W. |
| McLeavy, F. | Simmons, C. J. | Yates, V. F. |
| MacPherson, M. (Stirling) | Skeffington, A. M. | Younger, Hon. Kenneth |
| Macpherson, T. (Romford) | Skeffington-Lodge, T. C. | |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Skinnard, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mann, Mrs. J. | Smith, C. (Colchester) | Mr. Snow and Mr. George Wallace. |
| NOES | ||
| Baldwin, A. E. | Cuthbert, W. N. | Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) |
| Barlow, Sir J. | De la Bère, R. | Haughton, S. G. (Antrim) |
| Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Head, Brig. A. H. |
| Bennett, Sir P. | Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith) | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C. |
| Birch, Nigel | Drayson, G. B. | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Drewe, C. | Hogg, Hon. Q. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond) | Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.) |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G. | Duthie, W. S. | Jeffreys, General Sir G. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. | Fraser, M. C. P. (Stone) | Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale) | Keeling, E. H. |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Gage, C. | Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H. |
| Butcher, H. W. | Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) | Lancaster, Col. C. G. |
| Carson, E. | Gammans, L. D. | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. |
| Clarke, Col. R. S. | George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke) | Legge-Bourke, Mai. E. A. H. |
| Cole, T. L. | Granville, E. (Eye) | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. |
| Conant, Maj. R. J. E. | Grimston, R. V. | Lipson, D. L. |
| Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) | Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) | Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) |
| Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Harden, J. R. E. | Low, A. R. W. |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. | Neven-Spence, Sir B. | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. | Nield, B. (Chester) | Thomas, Ivor (Keighley) |
| McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. | Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight) | Nutting, Anthony | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth) |
| McFarlane, C. S. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. | Turton, R. H. |
| Mackeson, Brig. H. R. | Orr-Ewing, I. L. | Wakefield, Sir W. W. |
| Maclay, Hon. J. S. | Osborne, C. | Walker-Smith, D. |
| Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster) | Peake, Rt. Hon. O. | Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie |
| Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) | Peto, Brig. C. H. M. | Wheatley, Col. M. J. (Dorset, E.) |
| Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) | Pickthorn, K. | White, Sir D. (Fareham) |
| Maitland, Comdr, J. W. | Pitman, I. J. | White, J. B. (Canterbury) |
| Manningham-Buller, R. E. | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Williams, C. (Torquay) |
| Marlowe, A. A. H. | Price-White, Lt.-Col. D. | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Marshall, D. (Bodmin) | Rayner, Brig. R. | Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Mellor, Sir J. | Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury) | |
| Morrison, Maj. J. C. (Salisbury) | Roberts, H. (Handsworth) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (C'nc'ster) | Ropner, Col. L. | Commander Agnew and |
| Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. | Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry) | Mr. Studholme. |
| Mullan, Lt. C. H. | Spearman, A. C. M. |
Question put, and agreed to.