HC Deb 15 July 1949 vol 467 cc883-5
Mr. G. Brown

I beg to move, in page 7, line 15, to leave out from "require," to the end of line 17, and to insert: cause a local inquiry to be held; and the provisions of subsections (2) to (5) of section two hundred and ninety of the Local Government Act, 1933 (which relate to the giving of evidence at, and defraying the cost of, local inquiries), shall have effect with respect to any such inquiry as if the Minister were a department for the purposes of that section. This Amendment is in accordance with an undertaking given by my right hon. Friend in Committee when we were pressed to look at this matter again and provide that an inquiry under this Clause should be a public inquiry and that there should not be discretion about it. The Clause meets that undertaking in full, and I hope the House will accept it.

Mr. Orr-Ewing

I am glad the Minister has looked at this again, and has found that his suspicions about how the local authorities would behave were not well founded and that he can trust them. It is better to set in motion this procedure rather than to appoint a small local dictator to say what is right or wrong, and after that, if need be, to have an inquiry. I am sure that this is the right way to do it.

Mr. C. Williams

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Orr-Ewing) upon his considerable success in getting something inserted in the Bill. He has worked very hard in these matters. Many local authorities have had doubts on this question of appeals, and there were anything but happy feelings about it. My hon. Friend has managed to get the Government into a frame of mind to accept this, and that is an extremely difficult thing to do. It is a sensible Amendment, and it is never easy to get the Government to accept a sensible Amendment. Also, the Government are strongly prejudiced against anything which gives fuller scope for inquiry into these matters. It is a remarkable victory. It is an advance to the hon. Gentleman's fuller democracy—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

The hon. Gentleman must address himself to the Amendment.

Mr. Williams

The Amendment refers to a fuller right of appeal, and I was congratulating—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

The hon. Gentleman has referred to that two or three times. He must address himself to the Amendment.

Mr. Williams

I am very sorry, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I did not think I was not addressing myself to the Amendment. I am sure that I should not have been expected to omit giving the hon. Gentleman the fullest congratulation. If I wanted to go into the Amendment fully and to explain exactly why in every detail the hon. Gentleman and the Minister have been right in what they have done, I would do so, but as it is accepted by the whole House, it seemed to me that it would be by far the best thing to allow it to be accepted and to be put into law, and to congratulate the Minister—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

The hon. Gentleman has prevented me from putting the Question four or five times—

Mr. Williams

rose—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

I am on my feet. I now propose to put the Question.

Mr. Williams

On a point of Order. Am I not allowed to finish my speech, Mr. Deputy-Speaker?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

Not now.

Mr. Williams

Surely I have accepted your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Surely I am allowed to congratulate the Minister and the Government upon their simple words. I have no intention of carrying on for another two minutes. I only wish to make that perfectly clear, and not in any way to controvert your Ruling.

Amendment agreed to.

2.0 p.m.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Thomas Fraser)

I beg to move, in page 7, line 22, at the end, to insert: (6) In the application of this Section to Scotland for subsection (3) there shall be substituted the following subsection:— '(3) Before making an order under this Section, the Secretary of State shall give to the local authority an opportunity of making representations to him and shall take into consideration any representations made and, if the authority so require, cause a local inquiry to be held; and the provisions of subsection (3) to (9) of Section three hundred and fifty-five of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947 (which relate to the giving of evidence at, and defraying the cost of, local inquiries), shall apply to any such inquiry'. This Amendment extends the principle of the previous Amendment in the application of Clause 12 to Scotland.

Mr. C. Williams

We must congratulate the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on being here to deal with this point, which has nothing to do with any other Minister. We are delighted to see him here, and I do not think anyone, even the Patronage Secretary, would grudge the few moments during which the hon. Gentleman has come here to do something right and sensible.

Amendment agreed to.