DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE (COLONIES, ETC.) (Hansard, 24 February 1949)

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
The further sum required in respect of the development and welfare of Colonies under this Vote is £1,950,000, being £1,500,000 for development schemes and £450,000 for research schemes. Under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, as hon. Members will recollect, the sum of £120 million was made available for schemes to promote development of the resources of the Colonies and the welfare of their peoples over a period of 10 years from 1st April, 1946, subject to the moneys being provided by Parliament under the Development and Welfare Vote.
During the first two years of the currency of the Act, its implementation has been retarded by world shortages of supplies, particularly of building and road making materials and heavy plant and equipment, and also by the difficulties of recruiting trained and qualified staff. As a result, issues under the Act amounted to only £3,546,688 in 1946 and 1947, and £5,127,797 in 1947 and 1948, excluding Colonial Development Residual Schemes, although grants and loans totalling £21,729,236 were approved under the Act during those two years. So the Committee will see how far short of the loans which had been approved were those loans which were actually taken up and spent.
When the 1948 to 1949 Estimates were prepared, it was considered, in the light of the supply and manpower position, and of the rate of spending in the previous years, that the expenditure under the Act would not exceed £4,310,000. Since then, however, due to the marked improvement in the supply position, and in particular to the sustained efforts which have been made, we have succeeded in having a larger allocation of scarce commodities to meet Colonial needs, and the situation has undergone a considerable change. For instance, the allocation of 2104 steel has been greatly increased. Up to mid-1948 the Colonies were receiving annually some 75,000 tons of controlled steel from the United Kingdom, consisting of about 60,000 tons of general and sheet steel allocated to the Board of Trade for export—that is the steel known as B.E.X. steel—and 15,000 tons of structural steel allocated to the Ministry of Supply.
In the fourth quarter of 1948 the Colonial share of the B.E.X. allocation—that is, the Board of Trade allocation—was increased to a rate of 100,000 tons a year, and from the first period of 1949 this was further increased to a rate of 140,000 tons a year. We have every hope that in the last six months it will go up to 180,000. That is only a hope; it is in no sense, as we are constantly reminded, an allocation, but merely a hope. The Colonial share of the Ministry of Supply's allocation of structural steel has also been raised to a rate of about 44,000 tons a year. Controlled steel should therefore be going to the Colonies at a rate of 185,000 tons a year compared with a rate of 75,000 tons a year ago. That is a fine contribution that we are making. We must realize—this is one of the difficulties about steel—that the Colonies before the war obtained about 50 per cent. of their steel from this country and 50 per cent. from foreign countries. We are, of course, now providing more than our pre-war quota of steel, but they are not able to get any from foreign countries.
Supplies of cement have also increased, and the programme of shipments from the United Kingdom—

§ The Temporary Chairman
I should like to ask the Under-Secretary of State how he relates the remarks he is now making to the Supplementary Estimate. I ought to know, for the sake of the conduct of the remainder of the Debate on this Vote.

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
The position is this. We are now able to spend more money than had been anticipated, and I am explaining why we are able to spend it, owing to the fact that, due largely to the efforts of the Government, we have made more supplies of steel and cement—

§ Mr. Lennox-Boyd
What about the steel industry?

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
And the industry, too. Because of the magnificent efforts of the workers and others in the steel industry and because of the efforts of the Government we are able to spend more money than we had anticipated spending, and it is because steel and other commodities are now available to us that we have to come to the Committee to ask for an additional expenditure. I bow to your Ruling, Colonel Ropner, but I should have thought that I was in Order.

§ The Temporary Chairman
I have made no Ruling. I asked the hon. Gentleman to inform me, for my own guidance, how he related his remarks to the Estimate.

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
Supplies of cement have also increased, and the programme of shipments from the United Kingdom has risen from 396,000 tons in 1947 to 594,000 tons in 1948 and 850,000 tons in 1949. Fertilisers have become available in much larger quantities, and there was a progressive improvement over the last three years in the supply of plant and equipment for such schemes as water supplies, roads, electricity and agricultural developments. These improvements affect not merely Colonial Development and Welfare Schemes but also the general economy of the Colonial territories. However, I realise that I must not go into that aspect of the matter, but must confine myself to the Supplementary Vote with which we are dealing.
The reason why the demands for payments under the Colonial Development and Welfare Vote have been so substantially behind the target is, that many of the major schemes, which contain provision for the cost of building and equipping various types of works, have fallen behind, and this applies to the research schemes as well. We have had great difficulty in getting the necessary materials for building and equipping research laboratories, and for buildings for housing the research staff, and there has been also a grave shortage of scientists during these years. I would say that one of our greatest problems at the moment is the provision of scientists and of technicians of every grade, and this is a shortage which cannot be made good in a matter of months, or even in a year or two, for it depends to such a large extent upon the output of the universities and other training schools. The position 2106 in regard to equipment for the building and equipping of laboratories has improved, with the result that there is a happier position in research schemes than under general schemes of Colonial development and welfare.
I do not want to make any party point, otherwise I might incur the umbrage of the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) and our proceedings up to now have been very harmonious, but it is a fact that in many parts of the Colonial territory there is very little knowledge of the mineral resources and, therefore, we have to spend a lot of time and money on mapping the territories and on having various types of mineralogical surveys and the like—tapping rivers to ascertain their flow and a hundred and one other things of that kind. Therefore, we are able to spend on research very nearly the whole of the £1 million during the year 1949–50 which is authorised under the Act. Undoubtedly the position will be for the next few years that we shall be spending right up to the ceiling on research and it may be necessary to ask Parliament even to raise that ceiling at a later date.
The position with regard to research is now quite different to the position with regard to the rest of the Colonial and welfare schemes because we must get on with the research schemes before the other schemes, whether educational, economic or social can come into operation. The Committee is probably more aware of the work which has been done under the development section of the Colonial Development and Welfare Act than under the research section of the Act, because it is rather more obvious. When one sees a school going up, it is more obvious than a scientist working in a laboratory who is stuck away somewhere and whom no one ever sees. Therefore, the Committee may be interested to hear of some of the projects on which the money is being spent.
We have made considerable progress in the promotion of research schemes during the last two or three years, particularly in the field of agriculture, veterinary, fisheries and insecticides. The policy of the Colonial Office is to promote major research in this and other fields wherever possible on a regional basis and not on a Colonial basis, so as to get the Colonial Governments concerned 2107 to contribute as much as they can towards the recurrent cost, the remainder of the cost and the whole of the capital expenditure being found from Colonial Development and Welfare Research moneys. It is impossible and it would be wasteful for, say, four East African Governments to each have a veterinary, and agricultural—

§ The Temporary Chairman
Is not the hon. Gentleman now discussing his main policy?

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
Perhaps I was going a little astray. I will come back to the schemes which have been made, and which, I think, I can cite. In agriculture, there is the establishment of the East African Agricultural and Veterinary Research organisation, the projected scheme for the establishment of the West African Agricultural and Veterinary Research organisation, the projected scheme for the establishment of the Agricultural and Veterinary Regional organisations for Malaya, Singapore, North Borneo and Sarawak; and researches on cocoa, soils, bananas and sugar technology at the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture in Trinidad. That is an example of what I was saying about these regional organisations under the policy of the Department. So far as fisheries are concerned, there is the establishment of the West African Marine Fisheries Research Institute at Freetown, the establishment of a fish farming Research Station at Penang, Malaya, the establishment of a Marine Fisheries Research Station at Singapore, which is a projected scheme, the establishment of a Fisheries Research Organisation to serve Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, the establishment of an East African Marine Fisheries Station, and the establishment of a Marine Fisheries Research Station in Hong Kong.
In the medical field, there is the taking over as a British responsibility at the end of 1949 of the Rockefeller Foundation Yellow Fever Research Institutes in Lagos and Entebbe, the acquisition of the Sir Alfred Jones Research Laboratory in Freetown, the creation of the East African Bureau of Hygiene and Medical Research, the creation of an East African Medical Survey, extensive helminthiasis research in West Africa, and the establishment of research institutes to serve East and West Africa.
2108 Under the heading of locusts, there is the maintenance of the extremely successful campaigns against locusts conducted under the auspices of the Anti-Locust Research Centre. We have for the first time in history, I think, really managed to get the better of the red, the desert and the migratory locusts. Then there is tsetse and trypanosomiasis research, and the establishment of research institutes in East and West Africa, and the maintenance of the work of the Colonial Insecticides Committee at Porton in the United Kingdom and in East Africa and Mauritius. This work is increasing in importance daily and these insecticides will go into battle against the tsetse fly in conjunction with the new drug of antrycide.
In social science, there is assistance towards the maintenance of the Rhodes-Livingstone Institute, and the creation of Institutes of Social and Economic Research in the West Indies, West Africa and East Africa. There is also the creation last year of the Institution of the Colonial Microbiological Institute in Trinidad, and the maintenance of the varied activities of the Colonial Products Research Council. A large number of schemes of economic research are in the air and have not so far come to fruition and I should not be in Order in mentioning them.
We are likely to attract more scientists than we have done for these schemes when the projected Colonial Research Service comes into being shortly. Generally, I think that the need for the Supplementary Estimate on this subject should be a matter for satisfaction rather than for regret. Obviously, if we were spending the full amount which we are entitled to spend under the Act we would now be spending £12 million a year.

§ The Temporary Chairman
The hon. Gentleman is completely out of Order. The Estimate only goes up to the 31st March, 1949, and he is not entitled to go into the realms of prophecy.

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
It is not prophecy, if I may say so. The Act of 1945 assumed that that would be the amount which we would spend per year. We are entitled to spend up to £17½; million a year. I am trying to explain to the Committee that we are not spending nearly as much—

§ Dr. Morgan
Would my hon. Friend speak a little louder?

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
I was saying that we are not spending as much under the Act as it was anticipated we should be spending, and I was giving the reasons why we were not spending so much, and saying that it was a matter of congratulation that we were actually spending more than was anticipated when the original Estimates were framed.

§ The Temporary Chairman
The remark which the hon. Gentleman made and which I recall was that he was hoping to attract more specialists.

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
I am afraid that was a little out of Order. I can give the actual details of the schemes which have been approved since 31st March, 1948. I do not know whether that would be entirely in Order, but if hon. Members would like to know the details of other schemes and the actual monetary value which we have attached to each of them, I can give that information. If it is out of Order to do so tonight, it can always be done by means of a question, or possibly in connection with the Estimates which will be prepared for the next year. I would therefore ask the Committee to grant us the Supplementary Estimate for which we have asked.

§ Mr. Rankin (Glasgow, Tradeston)
I am sorry that when my hon. Friend was speaking it was not always possible to follow all that he was saying, so that if it should happen that I put points to him with which he has dealt I trust he will forgive me. It will at least enable him to make clear to the Committee those aspects with which he may have dealt but which were not quite grasped. The first question I wish to put to him refers to the amount spent on research schemes. I take it that all that money is spent centrally, and it would be interesting to know how much of that money is being used—

§ Mr. Lennox-Boyd
On a point of Order. We have now been told by the Under-Secretary of specific schemes upon which some of this extra money will be spent. Are we strictly limited to referring to the schemes for which this extra expenditure is being asked and only to such schemes?

§ The Temporary Chairman
That is so, but it was not easy to tell from the speech of the Under-Secretary of State which of the schemes to which he referred came under the heading of this item.

Mr. H. D. Hughes
Further to that point of Order. It struck me that the only thing which the Under-Secretary did not give was the list of schemes approved since the last main Estimate, and which we are now supposed to be discussing. Would he give us that?

§ The Temporary Chairman
Criticism of the Minister's speech is not a point of Order.

§ Dr. Morgan
Further to that point of Order. In spite of what the Minister may say on a particular Vote, is this not in fact a Vote concerned with development and welfare schemes and also a certain amount on research schemes? Surely, in spite of these particular items of which mention has been made, we are entitled to discuss all matters within development and research schemes.

§ The Temporary Chairman
The hon. Member is quite wrong. Debate on Supplementary Estimates must be confined to expenses incurred on the matters which the Supplementary Estimate covers.

§ Dr. Morgan
With great respect, may I point out that it is stated: Supplementary Estimate of the amount required in the year ending 31st March, 1949 for the development of the resources of colonies, protectorates, protected states and mandated territories, and the welfare of their peoples.

§ The Temporary Chairman
That is so, but it is not possible, when considering a Supplementary Estimate, to debate the whole field which is covered by the main Estimate. The hon. Member must confine his remarks to what is covered by the Supplementary Estimate.

§ Dr. Morgan
With respect, I am asking whether the discussion is confined to the terms of the Supplementary Estimate as printed in the Vote?

§ The Temporary Chairman
Yes.

§ Mr. A. Edward Davies
Further to the point of Order. Since the Under-Secretary has not told us how the money is to be distributed, and without desiring to criticise his speech and recognizing 2111 that he offered to give us the information, might I point out that we are in rather a difficulty?

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
Perhaps I can clear up this point. It would be difficult, without quite a lot of financial inquiry, to allocate specifically here and now the exact amount on the various individual schemes. The amount for which I am asking is that which it is calculated will be required to cover schemes by the Colonial Governments up to the end of the financial year.

§ Mr. Rankin
On a point of Order. I seek your guidance, Colonel Ropner, as to the position we have reached. I was under what was perhaps the misapprehension that I had the ear of the Committee. I have been pushed out by points of Order to which I willingly submitted, but now my hon. Friend steps in and obliterates me altogether. Is he making a speech or am I?

§ The Temporary Chairman
The hon. Member has caught my eye.

§ Mr. Rankin
I hope that my hon. Friend will have plenty of opportunity to deal with the points which he wishes to put before the Committee. The point which I was seeking to make was that we have here a revised estimate of £750,000 for research schemes, and it seemed to me pertinent to inquire what amount of this revised expenditure is to be devoted to the training of the Africans themselves, in the carrying out of these schemes. That seems to me to be a perfectly appropriate inquiry to make in regard to this part of the Estimate. I assume that all this is central expenditure. When I was looking at it I recollected the Debate which we had a week ago, when my hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Skeffington) raised what was admitted in all quarters of the House to be a most important problem in the economy of Africa, namely, erosion. No one denied its urgency. No one denied the importance of the nature of the problem and—

§ Mr. Lennox-Boyd
On a point of Order. May I ask you, Colonel Ropner, whether I should be in Order in asking the Under-Secretary to say how much money of this Supplementary Estimate is being devoted to the prevention of erosion, 2112 and, if there is no such sum, would I be in Order in saying that the hon. Member is wholly out of Order?

§ The Temporary Chairman
The hon. Member would not be in Order in asking any question unless he caught my eye. At the same time the hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. Rankin) is going rather wide of the matters under discussion.

§ Mr. Rankin
The hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Lennox-Boyd) merely anticipated me. I intended to put exactly the question which he put.

§ Mr. Joynson-Hicks (Chichester)
Further to that point of Order.

§ Mr. Rankin
This looks like a conspiracy.

§ Mr. Joynson-Hicks
Is it not a fact that the Under-Secretary has given us the particulars of this Supplementary Estimate?

§ Mr. Rankin
No.

§ Mr. Joynson-Hicks
Yes. Are we not entitled, therefore, only to raise questions in respect of those services on which the money is to be spent, and is it not out of Order to ask hypothetical questions as to whether additional money is to be spent on other matters?

§ The Temporary Chairman
It is not easy to give a Ruling as to what is or is not in Order in a Debate on Supplementary Estimates before speeches are made, but for the guidance of the Committee I would point out that where the revised Estimate is so much larger than the original Estimate, as in the case of the amount under "C," it is in accordance with precedent that the Debate should be allowed to range rather more widely than would otherwise be the case.

§ Mr. Rankin
I do not press my point, but it seems important that we should know how much of this money is being spent on research for the prevention of erosion in certain parts of Africa.
There is a further question I wish to ask my hon. Friend. Will he tell us how much of the money in connection with Development and Welfare Schemes is being spent centrally and how much is going to local governments? It seems to me that, welcome as the amount to be 2113 spent is, it is fantastically small compared with the amount we aim to spend on the 10-year plan. It looks as if 20 years will have to elapse before we complete that plan if this revised Estimate is to be taken as a criterion. There is a further example of this underspending in connection with the 10-year educational plan for Kenya that was issued in 1948. I appreciate that a good deal of the money involved is being locally contributed, but the fact remains that some part comes from Colonial development funds. It is worth noting the criticism made of the smallness of the expenditure allocated to the Kenya plan: The financial ceiling, imposed by the development and reconstruction authority, was too low to enable any reasonable plan to be framed at all. It is important, therefore, that where local restrictions are imposed the central authority should be prepared to assist rather more liberally than they are prepared to do according to the Estimates now before us. I agree that a lot of money is going to Kenya, but I doubt whether enough money is being provided for educational purposes. I know it may be argued that the problem is a materials one, but if I understood my hon. Friend correctly he disposed of that. In any case, I do not think the problem is chiefly one of materials, because the grants-in-aid can be used for existing educational institutions which will enable them to develop more easily than at the present time. While the materials problem does exist, it is the financial problem that is the important one. We could make educational advance in Kenya easier if we showed a more generous attitude in our approach to this problem.

§ Mr. Awbery
On a point of Order. Are we confined in this Debate to the subjects mentioned by the Under-Secretary, or can we deal generally with Colonial welfare?

§ The Temporary Chairman
The answer to the second part of the question is "no." In reply to the first part of the question, I am not sure that I shall be in Order in allowing a discussion to range over all the subjects mentioned by the Under-Secretary. Generally speaking, the Debate should be confined to the Estimates immediately before the Committee.

§ Dr. Morgan
Further to that point of Order. When I asked you earlier, Colonel Ropner, in view of the fact that this is a Supplementary Estimate involving £2 million for the development of the resources of the colonies, protectorates, protected states and mandated territories, and the welfare of their peoples, whether it would be in Order to discuss the welfare of the peoples you said "Yes," but I now find that there is a clash between the Ruling you gave then and the Ruling you have just given. I may be wrong, but I submit that, having regard to the huge sums involved and according to the terms of this Vote, Members can, according to Parliamentary procedure, discuss any matters affecting the welfare of the peoples.

§ The Temporary Chairman
Erskine May states: Debate on supplementary and excess grants is restricted to the particulars contained in the estimates … debate cannot touch the policy or the expenditure sanctioned, on other heads, by the estimate on which the original grant was obtained. That is the procedure I must enforce to the best of my ability. It is not possible to say in advance of speeches exactly what will be in Order and what will not be in Order on Supplementary Estimates such as those that are before the Committee. I have tried to give some guidance by saying that it is necessary to restrict the course of the Debate under "B" on the lines I have indicated, but that as the amount required under "C" is so much as compared with the original Estimate, I feel justified in allowing a Debate that might include matters of general policy.

§ Mr. A. Edward Davies
The total which we are considering is almost £2 million, and it is additional to the original vote of £4 million. Thus the picture which we see before us is that the Colonial Office is asking for a Supplementary Estimate to spend a sum of money which is about half of the average allocated for the development of the Colonies. In my view, the sums now before us for consideration are inadequate for the job, and the Under-Secretary would agree. He asked us, however, to appreciate that inasmuch as £1,500,000 is being spent on development and welfare schemes, it 2115 indicates that there are more materials coming forward and that the work is getting in hand, which is a matter for congratulation. On that we agree with him.
I want to deal for a moment with Vote C, which deals with research schemes, and about which we have a little more latitude, because it is of basic importance to know what it is we intend to do with this money. Some of us feel that if the Colonies are to be developed some fundamental research has got to be done in most of them. We believe that there are great resources, the limits of which are yet unknown, and if the Vote today is intended to provide facilities for that to be done we welcome it. I want to ask a question about research, to which reference was made in a leaderette in "The Times" this morning, where we are told that under Economic Co-operation Administration it is now proposed to provide the staff not from our own research fund but to do it by some kind of arrangement with America under E.C.A., and have service of 50 scientists, 25 of whom I understand are to be geologists, and 25 of whom—

§ Mr. Lennox-Boyd
On a point of Order. As we were told yesterday that the geologists are to be paid for out of Marshall Aid, how can this expense possibly come in under this Supplementary Estimate?

§ Mr. Davies
It is a point I am putting, so that the research which we are considering under this Vote would take account of work of that character. If the work is being done by some extraterritorial body such as the one I have mentioned, surely the necessity for the Vote will not arise. Colonel Ropner, will you guide us on that point?

§ The Temporary Chairman
If the payments are being made out of Marshall Aid it clearly means that the remarks of the hon. Member are out of Order.

§ Mr. Davies
The point I am seeking to establish is that it may be one of a number of arrangements, whereby the work of research and survey is being handed over to some other body. That is a matter of vital interest for the consideration of this matter.

§ The Temporary Chairman
Perhaps I can help the hon. Member a little by 2116 saying that it is not possible on a Supplementary Estimate to refer to savings.

§ Mr. Davies
Then we will refer to expenditure, which in this case is for £450,000. The point I am seeking to make is, that if the work is to be done by outside bodies why is it necessary to make this request for £450,000? In short, can we have some information on what is being done by the Colonial Office in consultation with the other Governments and the Economic Co-operative Administration in this matter.

§ Mr. Dumpleton (St. Albans)
I want to raise a small but not unimportant point on the Vote in connection with research schemes. The Under-Secretary gave us some examples of some of the schemes covered by this Vote, and those of us who have read the very interesting annual report of the Colonial Research Council know what a tremendous amount of research is going on in the Colonial territories and has been for the last two or three years. Some of them are by the permanent research stations that have been set up, such as the Marine Research Station in Sierra Leone, some by teams of scientists spending a considerable time in the territories, and others by single individuals carrying out ad hoc schemes under Colonial research fellowships.
The question I should like to ask is, what happens to the reports of the research workers and the information which they have gathered? We have at the Colonial Office a very valuable information section, which is available to those of us in this Committee who are interested in Colonial matters. It seems to me that it is necessary that some of this information which is gathered by these research workers should be disseminated very widely within the Colonial Service. It is not only a question of the research schemes into the physical resources of the Colonies. I have in mind at the moment the very useful piece of research done by Dr. Tooth in the Gold Coast on juvenile delinquency. There was the Colonial Fellowship in Gambia on the political make-up of the communities in Gambia, which was done by Mr. Gamble. Are these reports filed in the dusty archives of the Colonial Office and available only to the members of the Research Council? Should there not be publication of this information in a 2117 journal which would make it far more widespread and available than it seems to be at the moment.

§ Dr. Barnett Stross (Hanley)
I should like to have some information as to the welfare schemes in hand. I am thinking particularly of the schemes associated with the medical care of the people involved, and also of research associated with nutrition. The work that has been done these last few years has increased tenfold and also in quality, and all of us are very well aware of this fact. But some of us are conscious of the fact that native populations do not always reap benefit from our civilisation, certainly not for the first few generations. Therefore, I should like to ask if there is any specific information as to whether there is any improvement in regard to pulmonary tuberculosis, and what is being done in the Colonies to stamp out venereal disease, a recent affliction, speaking in terms of 50 or 100 years, so far as these native people are concerned. If they were ever addicted in the past to this type of affliction, it was a disease which they had conquered, and which had disappeared as a killing disease amongst them. We ourselves are responsible for any new type of affliction, and we should be particularly sensitive to rid them of it. What work is being done in this respect?
I remember observations which were made by previous Governments in the thirties showed a most lamentable state of affairs so far as nutrition of the people in Africa was concerned. In one great mining area, if my memory serves me correctly, labourers whose average age was about 24 or 25 were dying at the rate of about 56 per thousand per annum. It was impossible to get them to carry on their work. The morbidity and sickness rate was so high that the firm employing them was unable to make profits until they brought in medical men and physiologists, who told them that the men were suffering from the grossest forms of malnutrition.
As a result of improvement of the diet and other welfare work, within four years that death rate had fallen from 56 to eight per 1,000. Are we intimately concerning ourselves in a very wide way with problems of this description? We cannot be concerned to know only how much tin 2118 and copper comes out of the area and how much the area suffers from soil erosion. Our great responsibility is the primary human material. If our civilisation is worth anything at all we must show the whole world that we accept our full responsibility in all these directions.
Now for a word about tuberculosis. The subject is very important because the tuberculosis bacillus has ravaged the whole continent. Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that some of the medical men who went out there, no doubt with the best intentions in the world, took preconceptions and prejudices from this country associated with bricks and mortar, and with standards of equipment such as we are accustomed to but which cannot be obtained in our generation in the Colonies—and which are really not necessary in order that the work should commence. Is he not aware that it is possible, if one uses one's inventive genius, one's desire and one's ideals, to tackle the problem of tuberculosis in the Colonies without the expenditure of enormous sums of money?

§ The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Bowles)
The hon. Gentleman must confine his remarks much more closely to these two Votes. In a Debate of this kind he cannot allude to the general policy carried out by the Colonial Secretary.

§ Dr. Stross
I am obliged to you, Mr. Bowles, for your advice. I was thinking that the topic of research was associated with welfare schemes, especially research for the treatment of tuberculosis.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Could the hon. Gentleman point out exactly how the subject of research comes under these two Votes? The hon. Gentleman is talking about tuberculosis. Will he explain under which one of these particular Estimates the money is really needed during the concluding two months of this financial year.

§ Dr. Stross
I should like to ask the Under-Secretary whether he will be as specific as possible and give an assurance to us that as much care will be taken as possible in the eradication of pulmonary tuberculosis and the other diseases which I have mentioned? With that I must be content.

§ Mr. Awbery
The Committee have been advised that hon. Members must 2119 confine themselves to the statement made by the Under-Secretary, and that we may not go outside his statement.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
I was not here to hear the Under-Secretary's speech, but I am told by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just vacated the Chair that he called the Under-Secretary of State to Order on one or two occasions himself. The hon. Gentleman may be out of Order if he confines himself to that speech.

§ Mr. Awbery
The Committee are asked to approve £450,000 for the development of a research station, which no doubt means that factories will be established. We must have Factory Acts and workmen's compensation. I want to know whether matters of that kind can be discussed under this Vote. If you give me your permission to go on I shall do so, but if you rule me out of Order I shall sit down.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Those matters would go much too wide.

§ Dr. Morgan
I shall try to keep within the bounds of Order on this Vote. My attention has been directed to the fact that an additional £2 million, which is referred to in the Estimate, relates also to the general subject of the welfare of the Colonial peoples. I want to refer to the research work done in connection with diseases prevalent in many of the areas in which this money is being spent. You ruled just now, Mr. Bowles, that the subject would be out of Order. Let us take the inhalation of dust caused in cane crushing. The residue of this process is a dusty substance called bagasse. The disease caused by its inhalation is called bagassosis. I should like to ask whether any research is included for this work within the terms of the Estimate.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
If the Under-Secretary of State says "Yes," the subject is in Order, and the hon. Member can go on with his speech.

§ Dr. Morgan
That means that the research must have taken place. Does it mean that if the research has not taken place, I cannot speak on the matter at all?

§ The Deputy-Chairman
That is so.

§ Dr. Morgan
Then I shall have to put the points to the Under-Secretary in a series of questions. May I ask the Under-Secretary whether there has been any research concerning the disease known as bagassosis in any of the islands producing and crushing sugar cane?

§ The Deputy-Chairman
I must explain to the hon. Gentleman that he can only find himself in Order if the Under-Secretary nods his head and says or indicates that this is one of the subjects for which he wants this £2 million. If the Under-Secretary says "No," then the hon. Member is out of Order.

§ Dr. Morgan
Suppose the Under-Secretary does not nod or shake his head?

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Then the hon. Gentleman is out of Order. The only person who knows why he wants this money is the Under-Secretary of State. If he does not indicate in the affirmative, obviously the hon. Member for Rochdale is out of Order.

§ Dr. Morgan
There is very prevalent a condition of deficiency of vitamin, producing a disease called avitaminosis. When I was in the West Indies in 1938 and 1939 that was the case. I want to know whether any research covered by the Vote has taken place on this disease from the medical point of view? There is no answer. I will go on to my third question. Let me take the hookworm disease. The Rockefeller Research Committee which visited Trinadad found that from 75 to 80 per cent. of the population suffered from hookworm disease. Can the Under-Secretary tell us whether any local research has taken place? There is no reply.
I will ask another question. Take again the disease called yaws. In Grenada, for example, I know for a fact that one particular drug was used. It was found that the drug had most wonderful effects in healing up the primary lesions in this condition. I would ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, having regard to the fact that this drug has now been stopped in the West Indies, any research is taking place with regard to a neighbouring drug, that is a drug almost on the same chemical lines, or any research in connection with a drug of this character for curing yaws in the West Indies?
2121 Perhaps I may go on to another point. Take leprosy. It is not so widespread as it is in West Africa but it has very deleterious effects on the West Indian population. New treatments are being tried. May I ask the Under-Secretary whether in any of the research schemes covered by this Vote there is expenditure for research into leprosy, from the point of view of minimising the growth of the germ or from the point of view of treatment by special drugs. If the Under-Secretary says that there is nothing on this point, I shall have to stop.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
I think that the hon. Gentleman is in Order on leprosy.

§ Dr. Morgan
I hope that I shall not get into a leprous state in consequence. This is a very important subject. I should like to know from the Under-Secretary whether that treatment is in the nature of a continuation of the isolation treatment, or is it the use of new drugs? Sometimes leprosy is non-infective. Because of Scriptural references, most people think of leprosy as a disease with which one must never come into contact. However, there are lepers in this country now who are non-infective and there are also non-infective lepers in the Colonies. Has research been done into non-infective and infective leprosy? Are the present methods of prevention and cure by the new drugs being continued in the West Indies as they are in West Africa?

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
I understand that all kinds of leprosy are being examined in the West Indies at present.

§ Dr. Morgan
I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. I have a further question about research concerning the prevention of tuberculosis from the point of view of milk preservation. Are there in the West Indies any pasteurisation plants undertaking research into the early and late contamination of milk, its pasteurisation and sterilisation? What research work is being carried out into the West Indian tubercular germ? I am one of those people who believe that, to a certain extent, germs modify themselves according to the climate or environment in which they are situated. Does research work of that nature come under the 2122 Estimate? I am very much obliged to you, Mr. Bowles, for having allowed these questions because they are very important medical questions.

§ Mr. Rees-Williams
I regret that I shall not be able to answer all the questions put by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Dr. Morgan) because I have not details of all the schemes which he mentions, but I will look into them and inform him of the stages which the various schemes have reached, if they have reached any.
I found, and the Committee have found, that it is more difficult to keep in Order on this Vote than it was on the other Votes on the Colonial list. The additional expenditure for which we are asking represents amounts calculated to be required to cover issues by Colonial Governments on approved schemes up to the end of the financial year, and it is very difficult to allocate the amounts required to specific schemes. I gave a list of research projects which are examples of the major research projects which have been made during the last year. Undoubtedly expenditure will be made on many of those projects but they were examples and they were not intended to be, nor were they taken to be by the Chair or anyone else, the exact projects which will be developed during this period.
That being the case, it is difficult for me to answer in detail some of the points, such as soil erosion, which have been raised. I can, however, advise hon. Members to look at the details of schemes which have actually been made up to 31st March and are published in the annual returns of schemes presented to Parliament and in the annual report of Colonial research schemes. Both of these are annual reports and both of them give in detail the schemes for which money has been required by the Colonial Office.
The matters which my hon. Friend the Member for Hanley (Dr. Stross) raised are having constant attention, and the medical schemes to which he referred will be put into practice as soon as possible. However, in medicine, as in all other fields of activity, we are in great difficulty. We are short of doctors and medical research staff, and that makes progress much slower than we would 2123 desire. Last week we had a Debate on soil erosion, and hon. Members will see from that that the question of soil erosion, which is in the minds of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, is having my right hon. Friend's constant attention and that he is giving it all the effort he can spare from his many other duties. I therefore hope that the Committee will give the Colonial Office this Vote.

§ Mr. Awbery
On a point of Order, Mr. Bowles. As the discussion has been confined to the statement made by the Under-Secretary, can we in future have the figures in print before us so that we may know exactly what we can discuss and what we cannot?

§ The Deputy-Chairman
That is not a question for me.