HC Deb 23 February 1949 vol 461 cc1956-73

8.15 p.m.

Mr. A. R. W. Low (Blackpool, North)

I wish to call attention to the new registered Reserve about which the Minister of Defence and the Secretary of State for War made statements on 23rd September last. If I trespass on the Minister's functions by stating the purpose of this Reserve, it will only be to make my argument clearer, and perhaps it will save the right hon. Gentleman's time when he replies. The right hon. Gentleman will agree that it is difficult for me to put my case unless I put his first. As I understand it, when the Government came to re-examine our Defence situation most closely last autumn, they felt there was a need to polish up the mobilisation plans for all three Services and instituted therefor a voluntary reserve for which they ask members of the Class Z Reserve to volunteer. The liability is that these volunteers will be subject to recall in the event of an emergency earlier than the normal Class Z Reservists and those in the auxiliary Reserve. The Minister of Defence, in announcing this scheme, said: During these immediate post-war years and before our plans for building up substantial trained Reserves have matured, we have at hand, should any extreme emergency be forced upon us, the trained and battle-proved men, and women too, who carried us to victory in 1945. These represent our present real Reserve since, as the House is aware, they are still liable to recall in the event of an emergency. Plans to this end have been prepared."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd September, 1948; Vol. 456, c. 1106.] He went on to point out that a general recall of all these men will require time; that time will be taken in sorting them all out. He said that the task of allotting them to units could not be done overnight. The Secretary of State for War, later in the Debate, explained the situation as far as the Army was concerned. He said: The intention is to invite men to register in particular areas where they are known to local commanders, and when they have done so to call them up if and when difficulties arise, particularly in relation to the Anti-Aircraft Command."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd September, 1948; Vol. 456, c. 1218.] He pointed out that this would save a great deal of time.

It is clear from these statements that both Ministers attach great importance to this new scheme in the event of mobilisation becoming necessary. They did not, however, give us any details, although details were given at a Press conference on 30th September. We do not know what was said at the Press conference, other than what was printed in the Press—owing to the shortage of newsprint even the Press conferences of the Secretary of State are not fully reported. Actually, the reports of that Press conference were very meagre indeed. It can be said that since this announcement we have had no news as to how this admittedly important Reserve has progressed. The Minister of Defence referred again to the subject on 28th October when he said: I have not been able to get any report as to the response we have had to that first appeal, but I hope that it will be very successful in enabling us to build up what is required."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th October, 1948; Vol. 457, c. 375.] In his few remarks on this subject in the course of his speech that day, he again made it clear that he still attached importance to this registered Reserve.

I should like to find out from the right hon. Gentleman what is the present position. First, does he still attach the same importance to this Reserve? If so, will he give us some details of what the men and officers who come forward are expected to do? Of course, we do not expect him to give us the full details that would appear in pamphlets and area instructions. Is it to apply only to antiaircraft units, or is it possible that Reservists of this kind will be needed in the field force and in technical units? The need to save time, which is the Government's reason for establishing that Reserve, would apply throughout the Army to all types of units. If it is an essential part of a mobilisation plan that such men should be available, is it not also essential that they should be constantly kept in touch with the units to which they are allotted, and also given a chance of keeping in touch with changes in equipment?

In the anti-aircraft units, for which these men are particularly required, we are told that there are changes and improvements in equipment. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War told us so in the statement which he issued with this year's Estimates. If that is so, is it not important that these men should be given a chance to see this new equipment? I imagine they would not be allowed to see this new equipment and work it unless they were under orders on duty and subject to the Official Secrets Act at the time. I could put many more questions on this subject to the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not want to go into details. I only want him to tell us that the scheme has been worked out.

I should also like the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the decision which must have been taken by him before he answered the Question I put to him on 25th January, and which gave rise to this short Debate on the Adjournment. On that day I asked him how many officers and men previously on Class Z Reserve had registered in this Reserve created by him in September. He replied: It would not be in the public interest to give these numbers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th January, 1949; Vol. 460, c. 720.] I have heard the right hon. Gentleman make similar statements about other things, and I have also heard his colleagues make similar statements, but I never expected that answer to the Question I put to him. I would remind him that he allows the Minister of Defence to tell us the exact strength of the Army from time to time, and the breakdown of that strength into Regulars, bounty men, and National Service men. So much for the Regular Army. He tells us in detail the numbers in the Territorial Army, and he tells us how many joined in the various commands and areas of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

No, he does not.

Mr. Low

The hon. Gentleman is on the wrong side of the House, and on the wrong Benches, too. He should go and help the Minister to reply. If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to tell us those things about the active Army and about the active Reserves, why on earth cannot he give us similar details about what has become known in the Press as the "phantom paper army." I do not mind his having a phantom paper army if he has something else as well. What on earth is the secret about the number of men who come forward in response to an appeal by the right hon. Gentleman for volunteers for an early call-up in the event of an emergency? I rather feel that the right hon. Gentleman may reply, "I cannot give you these numbers, because they all belong to the anti-aircraft brigade and we have a rule in the Army that we never publish figures of what is called a particular category."

The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell) indicated assent.

Mr. Low

The right hon. Gentleman nods his head. It was not very subtle anticipation on my part, because he gave a hint that that would be his reply when he answered a supplementary question that I put to him. Is not the right hon. Gentleman carrying the needs of security a little far? First, it is known that there ought to be an enormous number of men and women in the Anti-Aircraft Command. Then it is known that there ought to be a large number of Territorial volunteers, and there will be a large number of National Service men under the present scheme. What is the secret to be given away if the right hon. Gentle- man lets us know whether a few thousand or even ten thousand men have volunteered to join this registered Reserve and therefore made themselves liable to early recall at some future date in the event of an emergency?

I very much fear from reports which I have had from private individuals who have written to me since I asked the Question that the reason the right hon. Gentleman does not give the figures to the House is that the scheme has not been a great success. The right hon. Gentleman may not like me saying that, because he may think it is contrary to the spirit of his appeal and will upset recruiting for this Service, but the House, having been told by the Minister that this is an important new Reserve, is entitled to know how recruiting for it is going, and it is for that reason that I have raised the subject tonight.

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman should be allowed to hide behind the screen of security. When I say that I have been told by people that very few have volunteered and that I have made what inquiries I could, I want to add that purposely I have not made inquiries of a particular anti-aircraft unit with which I have close connection, because I do not want to get involved in any official secrets. I am speaking entirely on the information given to me by people who have written in. I have not so far been able to meet anyone who has volunteered for this Reserve, nor have I so far met anybody who is in a unit to which any such volunteer has been allotted. From my own experience and from the information that is available to me, it would appear that the scheme has not met with complete success. If it has not met with complete success, I should like to know from the right hon. Gentleman what he intends to substitute in its place.

I quite agree with him and with the Minister of Defence that these special measures were necessary. There are gaps in our Defence position which it would be quite wrong to discuss tonight, but one of those gaps is obviously the shortage of men in the Territorial Army, which at the moment is largely due to the way in which the National Service system is going to work out, and that shortage will go on for at least two to three years. It was always hoped that some of this short- age would be made good by volunteers from the Class Z Reserve.

I was glad to see at the beginning that the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to experiment to see whether a volunteer force would be successful. It would seem that if it is not successful, he would be failing in his duty to the House and to the country to ensure the adequacy of our Reserves if he did not propose some complete re-registration of all men on the Class Z Reserve, so that at least he should be able to know whether men would be available to join up in the event of an emergency. The Minister ought to know, and he should be able to tell the House, whether the three million men who have left the Army since the War are available to rejoin at a moment's notice, a month's notice or six months' notice. If I am right in guessing that the voluntary scheme has been a failure, it is right to ask the right hon. Gentleman what other scheme he has to put in its place.

The right hon. Gentleman may say that the scheme has not had much time to work itself out and that it was difficult to give it publicity at the same time as we were giving publicity to Territorial Army recruiting. I see that one may slightly conflict with the other. Is it, then, his policy that more publicity should be given to this scheme now and that we should try it out for a further two, three, four or five months? What he should not be allowed to get away with is a statement to the effect that he is quite satisfied with the present situation but that he will not tell the House how recruiting is going, and that in due course he may actively reconsider the whole matter.

The right hon. Gentleman is not given as much as some of his colleagues to airy phrases about Defence matters, and I hope that he will be able to reassure us on this point. I ask him, in this context and others, to consider most carefully before telling the House, in answer to a Question or at other times, that it is not in the public interest to give information which no commonsense person could imagine is information about secrets. People, particularly suspicious-minded people—many people are suspicious of the right hon. Gentleman—must think that is really an excuse and a screen for something which has not worked very well.

8.33 p.m.

Brigadier Peto (Barnstaple)

We all wish this scheme to succeed—there can be no doubt about that in any part of the House—but as my hon. Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) has said, we are interested to know what other scheme the Minister will substitute if this one does not succeed. Before putting that question to the Minister, I would prefer to ask what he envisages doing with the present scheme in order to make it succeed. Is he prepared to give some inducement to encourage people to join, in order to become acquainted with modern weapons. If not, is he prepared to go on as we are now, or will he substitute some other scheme for it? The right thing would seem to be to continue with the present scheme and make it work.

Anyone who knows the Army at all knows that our main shortage will be in the Anti-Aircraft Command. There are many reasons for that, but it is principally due to the shortage in the numbers of trained Regular anti-aircraft units and the training establishments of anti-aircraft units. The numbers in the Regular Army are far too small to compete with the enormous number of people who have to be trained to take their place in the Territorial anti-aircraft units. That is the fundamental difficulty, and that makes it all the more important that a scheme like this for calling up men who have already been trained should be made to work.

I entirely endorse what my hon. Friend said about this not being a question of security or secrecy. Surely the House is entitled to be told why the scheme is not working, if it is not working. One of the reasons we are sent here as Members of Parliament is to find out about such schemes and to make such schemes work. We are not against the Minister on this, but are with him and want to help him. I hope that he will clarify this position when he replies.

8.36 p.m.

Major Legge-Bourke (Isle of Ely)

When we are dealing with the matter of Reserves, it is inevitable and natural that because we have just fought a war and during that war trained millions of people, some people should think it will not be necessary to call anybody up for a long time to come. However, one feature has been overlooked which is of singular importance in this Debate, and that is that since the War the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessor have seen fit to alter the role of a great many units in the Regular Army and the Territorial Army. Those which were infantry battalions may now be Ack-Ack regiments, and there have been changes in other fields. It will obviously be extremely difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to tell any of these men who have been demobilised from one unit that there is a certain unit to which they will be recalled if the unit in which they formerly served has since changed its role. The ideal way to deal with the Reserve would be to let every man know that the regiment from which he was demobilised will be the one to which he will return. If that had been possible, the right hon. Gentleman would have found a greater response to his appeal than he has done.

We do not know what he has found. He has not told us. However, I hope he will tell us tonight. Judging by what he has said so far about the Regular Army and the Territorial Army, the results are not very satisfactory. In his latest White Paper he tells us about the shortage of Regular recruits and we know that the Territorial Army has reached only half way to its target, and we can therefore only conjecture whether his scheme for this special Reserve is working or not. We only hope that it does not mean that it is working so badly that no figures can be released.

If the right hon. Gentleman wants this scheme to work, he must tell the men to what sort of units they will go, where those units are likely to be stationed and where they will have to go at a moment's notice. Unless the right hon. Gentleman does that, the uncertainty which will inevitably arise in the minds of the men will prevent his scheme from being successful. The right hon. Gentleman has said that he will concentrate on various areas concerned with Ack-Ack, but surely there will be other needs as well, and a distinction which must be made is whether the men are to go to Regular units or Territorial units. We understand that most of the Ack-Ack defences of the country will be in the hands of the Territorials. Are these men to go back to the Territorial units or to Regular units? Can the right hon. Gentleman give this information because it is important?

I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman really has in mind as regards these Reserves. Is he trying to impress on other countries that we have a vast potential which is immediately ready, or is he trying to make up paper figures for the benefit of this House? At the moment we have not been given anything like the right figures. I would impress upon him that so far as Reserves are concerned, the important thing is not that they are actually called up but that there is that potential there, and that it is known to be there. I believe this country does not inspire confidence in the world by having a vast number of men under arms at any one time. What inspires confidence is that this country is ready at a moment's notice to produce a great number of men who are well trained.

The questions which the right hon. Gentleman must answer soon—if he does not answer it tonight, and I hope he will—is this: how long does he think these men in the Class Z Reserve can be considered reliable without further training for immediate call-up? How long does he consider any man who comes out of the Forces after war service is really fit to be called-up and to serve with an active regiment at a moment's notice? That is an important question because we have no idea what is in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. My own feeling is that the maximum should be five years. I give him that as a figure which, if exceeded, is likely to endanger the efficiency of the Reserves unless he makes special arrangements for their refresher training.

It is of great concern to many people in industry today, and there is no industry which it seems to me is more concerned with this than the coal mining industry. During the war many of us were concerned that coal miners were called up into the Forces. That is past history and we need not dwell on that tonight, but it is most important that the right hon. Gentleman should make clear to the men in the Class Z Reserve which of them are in reserved occupations in the event of another emergency arising. As long as there is an uncertainty about what are the reserved occupations, there will be uncertainty in the minds of these men as to whether they should come forward or not in answer to the call of the right hon. Gentleman. So I hope he will take this opportunity of making that clear to these men and help them to come to a decision.

I know the right hon. Gentleman must get the Regular Army first, for until he does that, nothing else will work. Nevertheless, we cannot afford to let our Reserves simply rot, and that is what is likely to happen unless the right hon. Gentleman makes up his mind as to how long they can be kept without refresher training, who are in reserved occupations in the event of an emergency, and to which units these men should go in the event of that emergency arising.

8.43 p.m.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan (Perth and Kinross, Perth)

I think there will be no doubt in the mind of anybody with military experience that one of the most important things of all is how soon Reserves can be called up in an emergency and, secondly, what will be the value of those Reserves when they are called up. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) has put his finger on an important point, what will be the actual value of the Reservists whom the right hon. Gentleman hopes will be available to be called up.

Anybody who has had experience of Reservists and I speak as a Reservist myself—realises that changes of vigour, changes of health, and other things, materially affect the usefulness of Reservists. Therefore, from time to time during peace time it is of the utmost importance that those Reserves should be combed through to see who will be still available for really active work, who for less active work, and who have become of no use at all. At the beginning of the last war, we had to form a committee at the War Office to do this job. It was not formed as quickly as it should have been because it should have been done before the emergency arose. However, it proves exactly what my hon. and gallant Friend has said, what a large number of Reservists of other ranks, as well as officers, were not a great deal of good for the active job for which they were marked on paper, but who might be of some use for a less active job elsewhere.

The right hon. Gentleman will agree with me when I say that I do not often agree with him, but I would say that in this Class Z Reserve the Minister has a good plan here to produce at the right moment a considerable number of trained people to do a job which has to be done at once. Obviously Ack-Ack Command is the command which provides the biggest problem, because if Ack-Ack defences are not available before an emergency starts, one might just as well not hare them at all. That will be more so in the next war—which God grant may never come, but let us look to it in case it does. It will be more important than it was in the last war, and it was important enough then.

I ask the right hon. Gentleman, is there any real reason why we cannot have the figures as to the success or otherwise of this Class Z Reserve? Are we not here to be honest with ourselves, with each other and with the country? In any case, is it likely that any potential enemy—I will not mention names—does not know those figures? I am quite sure they do. Here in this House of Commons we are expected to be honest with each other, to say what is wrong or what is right. If the thing is going well, let us be pleased and tell the country; they are entitled to know, they pay. If it is going wrong, let us say so and say how we can put it right. Is there any real benefit to anybody, or does it prevent anybody outside from knowing, if we merely hide behind a statement that the public interest does not suggest that these figures should be given?

We on this side of the House want to know what the situation is, and I am perfectly sure hon. Members on the other side want to know as well. We are prepared to help in any way we can. In spite of all the abuse we have had from the right hon. Gentleman, we are still prepared to help him to build up the Army of this country, and that is something of which he should make use. He asks us by letter and by speeches at one moment to do this, and perhaps 24 hours later—I will not quote his famous phrases for they are well known—we are referred to in terms not altogether complimentary. It does not work, and unless we can get frankness from the Minister it will be harder and harder for us to tell the country and our constituents why we are trying to back him up because we do not know where we are, and neither does the country. I hope he will realise that we are perfectly sincere in this. We want to help if we can, but if we do not know what we have to help, we cannot do it. I put it as bluntly as that.

8.49 p.m.

The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Shinwell)

I am surprised that the hon. and gallant Member for Perth (Colonel Gomme-Duncan) has alleged that I occasionally indulge in abuse of my political opponents. I cannot recall anything more than a few mild observations about their policy and their political strategy. Beyond that I have never ventured. On the other hand, hon. and gallant Members opposite frequently castigate me for activities for which I am in no way responsible. For example, the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Low), who made the opening speech in this Debate, declared that hon. Members opposite were highly suspicious of the Secretary of State for War. That is a serious allegation, and my reply is that there is no reason why I should be suspect. [An HON. MEMBER: "You are."] Certainly I have nothing up my sleeve. At the same time I recognise that hon. and gallant Members opposite who display a very keen interest in the Army are entitled on any convenient occasion to raise questions such as that raised in this Debate. I make no complaint, except to say that if I ventured too far I should find myself in the throes of a discussion on the general Defence situation. I think we might defer consideration of such major issues until we have a Debate on Defence and the Service Estimates come before the Committee of the House.

The issue before us which emerges from the speech of the hon. Member for North Blackpool is a very simple one: first, whether we have achieved any success in what is described as the Registered Reservists Scheme; and second, if we have achieved success, what are the numbers of personnel we have succeeded in enlisting. On the other hand the hon. Gentleman asks us, if we have failed to achieve any substantial measure of success, to be good enough to disclose the actual numbers so that he may be made aware of our failure. That is the simple issue in this Debate.

No doubt hon. Members opposite would wish to know what the actual Reserve position is and I propose to acquaint them, broadly speaking, with the situation, which will, I hope, clarify and explain the position. First, we have, as hon. Members have themselves indicated, what is known as the Class Z Reserve. This Reserve consists of all those officers and other ranks who served in the late war and are eligible to be called up until the end of the emergency. As we have not yet reached the end of the emergency they are liable, obviously, to be called up until the end of the emergency, whenever that may be. It is true that in the Class Z Reserve there must have been a great deal of wastage, arising from death, illness, infirmity and ineligibility because of other reasons. Over and above this, a number of those included in Class Z category would not be eligible because they have outlived their term of military service. In other words, they would not be of very much use to us if an emergency occurred either now or in the near future. All that is true and I accept that position.

Nevertheless, in spite of wastage, infirmity and ineligibility from a variety of causes, there still remains a substantial Reserve in the Class Z category. It must not be forgotten, either here or overseas, that in that particular category there are numbers of officers and other ranks highly skilled in the arts of war. It is a very important Reserve to have at hand. There is, however, this difficulty about the Class Z Reserve. Whether the officers and other ranks in that particular category were associated during their service with the infantry, the gunners, a technical arm like R.E.M.E., the Ordnance or any other corps, they nevertheless, if called up, could not be made available for active service except after some delay. The machinery is all in train and the mechanism is there, but there are various physical difficulties, which must be familiar to hon. Members with Service experience, which would prevent the call-up of those men and their availability in a short space of time.

Obviously, some of those in Class Z Reserve were associated during the war with A.A. Command. What I have said of the other categories applies also to them. We are, of course, very much concerned about the efficiency of A.A. Command. It is obvious that if we were faced with an emergency or an attack upon this country, efficiency and capacity for speedy action on the part of A.A. Command would be indispensable. Because we wish to have a reservoir of men who were associated with A.A. Command during the war and could be made available at somewhat shorter notice than the generality of men in Class Z Reserve, although they themselves belong to Class Z Reserve, it was decided by my military advisers some months ago that we should adopt what they then called the "Village Green Scheme." They meant by that a scheme associated with local conditions, with men who were known to the commanding officer of the particular A.A. unit in the area. We decided, however, to call it, not the Village Green Scheme but the Registered Reservists Scheme.

I will make a confession to the House. We have not achieved a substantial measure of success with that scheme, certainly so far as numbers are concerned, but there are good reasons for that. The scheme was in active competition with the Territorial Army Campaign. Indeed, to some extent we decided to embark upon that scheme because we knew there were men who were not altogether willing to join the Territorial Army because that meant some measure of active service—drills, annual camp and training periods and the like—but who would be willing to place their services at the disposal of A.A. units and make themselves available, in the event of an emergency, to be called upon. That was the reason for the scheme, but as I have said it was in active competition with the Territorial Army campaign. Nevertheless, the scheme is there and in itself is a good scheme, even if we have achieved no substantial measure of success in attracting large numbers of men.

It may well be that we shall decide to adopt a similar scheme—and this will be an answer to the query of the hon. Member for North Blackpool—in relation to other units as occasion requires. But very much depends upon the success we achieve in connection with the Territorial Army campaign. On the extent to which we succeed in attracting a large number of recruits for the Territorial Army, many of whom will be attached to A.A. Command, will depend whether it will be less necessary to rely on this scheme. Over and above that, when the men called up for National Service begin to undertake their Territorial Reserve liability, many of them in A.A. Command, the scheme will be of no value at all. But that is some way ahead.

Mr. Low

If the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to say how many have come into the scheme already, is he prepared to say how many he wants per anti-aircraft unit, so that we may help him to get them?

Mr. Shinwell

I was coming to the matter of figures in a moment, and at the same time I will deal with the hon. Member's further question. Perhaps I may deal with his question on figures now. We are asked why it is that the figures are not made available. Why this secrecy? This is not unusual. It is true that we do disclose the figures of certain parts of the Service. For example, we may disclose the figures of one particular branch, but we do not disclose in that particular framework the numbers in particular units. Just as we decline to disclose the number we have available in A.A. Command, we equally decline to disclose the numbers that have already been made available to us in the Registered Reservists Scheme, and it would be most inadvisable to do so. It never has been done before. Incidentally, may I point out to the hon. and gallant Member for Perth that it seems to me that he should have been the last to talk about refresher courses for Reservists. I believe he was a Guards officer and no doubt a very——

Colonel Gomme-Duncan

Far higher than the Guards—the Black Watch.

Mr. Shinwell

I apologise, and I am delighted to hear it. A very close relative of mine was also an officer in the Black Watch and very proud of his kilt, which I am quite sure he wore with as much abandon as, and perhaps with greater poise than, the hon. and gallant Member. I am now advised that it was the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) who raised the question of refresher courses. I will not accuse him of having been associated with the Black Watch. Surely Regular officers would be the first to admit that men called up—Regulars in the Army who have entered into a contract of service of some years with the Colours and a certain number of years with the Reserve—were never called up for refresher courses. Why I should now be asked by Regular officers, of all hon. and gallant Members, to call up Reservists for refresher courses, I really cannot understand.

Major Legge-Bourke rose——

Mr. Shinwell

Wait a moment. Therefore, I must say to hon. and gallant Members that, although I can understand their anxiety for further information, I must resist the appeal, but at the same time assure them that, on the whole, things are going very well. In order to fortify that contention, I will give them further information without impairing the secrecy which I believe to be essential.

Major Legge-Bourke

Would the right hon. Gentleman clearly distinguish between what I said and what he said I said. What I did ask was the period after which he thought it necessary for re-fresher courses to be given to Reservists in order to make them fit for immediate call-up. I was not suggesting he should give them these refresher courses now, but I was asking the period after which he suggested they could be called up immediately without further training.

Mr. Shinwell

I thought I gave some information on that point at the beginning of my observations. I pointed out that Class Z Reserve has a certain wastage and that later on, when the wastage becomes more obvious and the men are no longer eligible or available, we shall have to rely not only upon the Regular Army but upon the National Service men and, in particular, the Territorial Army, which will derive from the National Service men.

I promised to say a word or two about the general Reserve position, without disclosing any matters which are regarded as secret. We not only can rely on Class Z Reserve, but we have the Regular Army Reserve. We have various categories of the Regular Army Reserve. I must be careful how I put this. It may well he that before very long we shall decide to devise another scheme which will assist in promoting greater reliability on the Reserve position than now exists, although the position is not quite so bad as some people imagine. We may improve it in a certain fashion, but I prefer not to enter into details at this stage. What I have said does indicate that we gave a great deal of attention to the matter of Reserves. In addition to what I have said, there is the Supplementary Reserve, which consists of technical people, transport people and the like. It must not be forgotten that we have the Territorial Army. A great deal of nonsense has been talked about the Territorial Army campaign. After all, they are the real reserves and we have got a fairly large number of the very highest quality—let there be no mistake about that, one might almost say picked men—and we hope to add to the numbers, we shall add to the numbers, in due course. That is a very fine Reserve to have available.

I do not propose to go beyond what I have said. I should like to give hon. and gallant Members all the information for which they ask but it is clearly impossible to do so in the present situation. All that I can say to them is that this Registered Reservists Scheme has been devised for a specific purpose, which I have already indicated. Further, while it has not achieved the measure of success that we would like, nevertheless, the scheme is in being and we hope to achieve further success in the future when it no longer enters into opposition with the Territorial Army campaign. As regards the general Reserve position, while we take note of the wastage and of the difficulties that arise from the passing of the years since the end of the war to the end of the existing emergency, when the Class Z Reserve will no longer be available, yet we have a reservoir that can be tapped in the event of an emergency, and which will be called upon should occasion require.

9.10 p.m.

Mr. McCorquodale (Epsom)

The House is grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) for having raised this important matter, and for having been the means of our having had a speech from the Minister which, while it did not go very far, did tell us something. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was possibly a little churlish in suggesting or hinting that the desire of my hon. and gallant Friends for detailed information with regard to the Special Reserve was in order that we could blame him if the situation was un satisfactory. That is not so. We are equally as anxious as we know the right hon. Gentleman is to make all these schemes a success. If the present scheme is unsatisfactory all that we desire to do is to be able to help, by making suggestions or in any other way we can to turn what is at present unsatisfactory into something more successful.

What we are anxious about, and I do not think that anxiety has been lessened by the Minister in this Debate, is the organisation of our Reserves. We must not assume that in a future war we shall have a six months' "phoney business" as we had in the late war. As the Secretary of State said, our trained Reserves are invaluable, but only if the authorities concerned know who they are, where they are, what they are doing, what their conditions are, whether they are working in a reserved civilian occupation and therefore not available for immediate call-up; and also if the authorities have a plan worked out for the quick and orderly calling up and posting of these Reserves in the event of an emergency. That is what I mean by the organisation of Reserves, not their numbers, but their swift and complete utilisation in the event of an emergency. So far as we can see it would appear that matters are still in the tentative stage. That is the cause of our anxiety. We desire to hear as soon as possible that the Minister, or rather his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service, as I think it is more his responsibility, has a complete scheme worked out so that our invaluable trained Reserves are available to the country at the shortest possible notice.

The completion of this organisation is to us of the greatest importance, and the more information which the right hon. Gentleman and his colleague the Minister of Defence can give to the House from time to time as to their plans and their progress, the more Members on all sides of the House can, I believe, help them in their difficult and important task. Believe me, we are all anxious to help to bring the Armed Forces—Regulars, Territorials, National Service and the Reserves —to a point of satisfactory readiness which we believe is a most important element in the maintenance of peace. We shall shortly have a defence Debate, and this wider question can no doubt be discussed again. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we consider these questions not in any spirit of blaming this man or that but with the desire to help to make the best possible use of the resources which are available to us.