HC Deb 16 February 1949 vol 461 cc1251-5
The Lord Advocate (Mr. John Wheatley)

I beg to move, in page 10, line 29, to leave out "relevant part of the letting," and to insert "rental equivalent."

This, and the five following Amendments, are designed to bring Clause 13 into line with Clause 2, as amended. Hon. Members will remember that as a result of the Amendments to Clause 2, provision is made to ensure that the rental equivalent will be deducted when there is a new letting to a new tenant.

Amendment agreed to.

The Lord Advocate

I beg to move, in line 31, to leave out from "expression," to the first "the," in line 32, and to insert: 'rental equivalent' means the amount of the premium, or of so much thereof as at the time of the tribunal's determination has not been repaid or recovered divided by the number of rent-periods between.

Commander Galbraith

The words seem a little difficult to understand. Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman give a little further explanation of exactly what they mean?

The Lord Advocate

If the words are read in conjunction with the Clause as originally drafted, and if one has in view the terms of the Amendments to Clause 2, I do not think any of the hon. Members who understood the Amendments to Clause 2 will have any difficulty in understanding these Amendments. It may be that the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) was not present when the Amendments to Clause 2 were discussed.

Commander Galbraith

That was a long time ago.

The Lord Advocate

It may seem a long time ago, but it was not really a long time ago. I do not want to weary the Committee in going over the effect of these Amendments, as it was fully explained in relation to Clause 2. The effect of the Scottish application Clause is to spread the rental equivalent over the period of that part of seven years as is apposite to the particular case. While I agree that in reading these Amendments in the abstract it may be difficult to understand them, if they are fitted into the context, they are perfectly comprehensible.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: In line 34, leave out "ending," and insert: the following date (in this Section referred to as the 'relevant date') that is to say.

In line 37, leave out "with," and insert "the date of."

In line 39, leave out "with," and insert "the date of."

In page 11, line 4, leave out "(5) and (6)," and insert "(4) and (5)."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Sir William Darling (Edinburgh, South)

It will be observed that this Clause is described as Clause 13, an unlucky number, and I think an unhappy circumstance. This Clause is arranged to apply this Bill to Scotland and is a matter of considerable regret. There is a growing feeling in the House of Commons and in the country that the attachment of Clauses which have a special application to Scotland, to English Bills may be a matter of administrative convenience but is not always desirable from many points of view.

I notice, for example, that under Clause 12 the power to make regulations is given to the Minister of Health in England and Wales and the same power is given to the Secretary of State for Scotland in Scotland. I am among those who would have debated whether it is desirable to give the same extensive and wide powers to the Secretary of State for Scotland as, to the right hon. Gentleman in England. That is a point on which a division of opinion might have been permitted. Again, in Clause 4 the local authority is responsible for providing the rates but in Scotland the tribunal is charged with that duty.

There must be come explanation, some justification, of this variation. I was struck by the Minister's observation a few minutes ago that 83 per cent, of the people of this country were already covered, and that being so we need not worry about the other 17 per cent. It is that which brings me to my feet. The population of these islands is about 50 million, of whom some five million are in Scotland. If the Minister does not intend to worry about 17 per cent. of his own countrymen, I would direct his attention to the fact that five million people in Scotland, some 10 per cent, of the total, will want to know the reason why. Coming, as the right hon. Gentleman does, from a small, vital country, I am certain that had circumstances been different he would have put forward with even greater vigour than I can command the view that I am putting forward.

9.0 p.m.

If there is to be a separate legislative system in Scotland, a separate method of conducting our affairs, habits of thought and action in this important domestic matter of the relations of landlord and tenant, then in spite of the urgency of the time factor, it would have been more courteous and respectful to Scottish public opinion if we had had a separate Bill which would have met the views of Scottish public opinion, even if the Government had had their way. The attempt to attach Scotland to England in this way is offensive to an ancient country and is not necessary. I am sure that in saying that I command a good deal of sympathy on the part of people of other nationalities.

The terms of reference of this Bill cover houses of three kinds, those the rateable value of which does not exceed £100 in London, £75 in England and Wales, and £90 in Scotland. That is a wide variation, and yet here we have Clause 13, by which Scotland is made to cling most reluctantly to the tail of England. When one looks at the Schedule one sees that of the three minor Amendments it contains two deal with Scotland. Scotland is tacked on to an English Bill by Clause 13, and yet the major alterations of law—two-thirds of the minor Amendments effected by the Schedule—relate to Scotland. I do not think it is fair to the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is an urbane, tolerant, accommodating Minister, or to the Lord Advocate.

It is a suggestion, in my view, that these distinguished Members of the Government are not able to conduct a Bill of their own. I should be the first to challenge that assertion if anyone made it. It is unfair to take up the time of English Members with what are Scottish matters of a difficult and specialised character. Therefore, I suggest that Clause 13 should be agreed to only on the very strict understanding that on future occasions legislation affecting Scotland should not be effected by a Clause of this character in what is a purely English Measure.

The Lord Advocate

I find it difficult to understand the righteous indignation of the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling). He apparently feels that it is entirely out of place that legislation affecting Scotland should be incorporated in a Clause at the end of a Bill which is primarily concerned with England. I understand that to be the tenor of the hon. Member's argument. I could have understood that argument if it had stood in isolation, but I find it difficult to reconcile with a Bill which I have before me. It is a Private Member's Bill which affects the United Kingdom. It has a long Scottish application Clause, and I find that the first supporter of the Bill is the hon. Member for South Edinburgh.

Sir W. Darling

Inconsistency is not the monopoly of the right hon. and learned Gentleman.

The Lord Advocate

I think we can agree to be inconsistent. But before the hon. Gentleman makes attacks of this nature, he should see matters in a proper perspective. He will remember that we had rent tribunals in Scotland for three years before England had them. It has taken England three years to come abreast of us. Now that they have done so, and we feel it desirable that we should move ahead, we have no objection to England coming along with us. It shows a progressive spirit in England which we are all delighted to see. I am sure that if the hon. Member appreciates the missionary spirit which has characterised the Scots throughout the centuries he will realise why we are doing this.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.