HC Deb 10 February 1949 vol 461 cc535-42
Mr. Churchill

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make about Business for next week.

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:

Monday,14th February—Consideration of the Report from the Select Committee on Hybrid Bills (Procedure in Committee).

Committee stage of the Juries Bill.

Tuesday, 15th February, and Wednesday, 16th February—Committee stage of the Landlord and Tenant (Rent Control) Bill and, if there is time, Second Reading of the Colonial Naval Defence Bill (Lords).

Thursday, 17th February—Supply (1st allotted day): Committee stage of Civil Supplementary Estimates beginning with National Health Service, England and Wales and Scotland; Colonial Office and other Colonial Votes; National Assistance Board.

Friday, 18th February—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.

Mr. Churchill

With regard to the Business which the right hon. Gentleman has announced for Thursday, the Committee stage of the Civil Supplementary Estimates, might I ask him whether the presentation of Supplementary Estimates of £221 million, or about a quarter of the total pre-war Budget, is not an event without precedent in time of peace, four years after fighting has stopped; whether it does not constitute a major incident in our policy? If that be so, will he not arrange that at least three days shall be given to the discussion of these enormous Supplementary Estimates, representing as they do the most wild miscalculations on the part of the estimating authorities and an enormous addition to the burden of the nation at a time when taxation—[Interruption]—already bears so heavily on all? I can quite understand the touchiness of the Minister of Health. He need not shake his finger at me.

May I say that I should like—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] Withdraw? I reiterate. Might I ask the Leader of the House whether he will undertake that three days shall be given to these Supplementary Estimates, this Thursday and the one following and another opportunity after that? It is not only the large issue of an enormous addition to our expenditure brought about by the grossest carelessness, but there are many particular details which require the careful investigation of the House—[Interruption.] I have couched every word I have said in interrogative form.

Mr. Morrison

I gather that this is a dress rehearsal for the Debate which will take place next week, and I can only say we have listened with great interest to the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just made and we shall be very pleased to have a further edition of the speech. [Interruption.]

The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan)

Let the Opposition come along.

Mr. Morrison

In regard to the question of additional days, that is, of course, entirely a matter within the power of the Opposition as to what use they would wish to make of the Supply days at their disposal.

Mr. Churchill

We consider—and I am giving this information to the right hon. Gentleman—that the gravity of the points raised by these Supplementary Estimates is such that we should not press for the Debate, which I asked for yesterday, on the conditions by which members are nominated to the European Assembly, until the week after next. If desirable, and if a second day's Debate is given on Thursday week, then this question of the method of election to the European Council could take place in the first week in March. Will he consider that? Will he also take into consideration that it may be necessary—I do not say it will—to set down a Vote of Censure on the Government's gross financial mismanagement?

Mr. Morrison

With regard to the second day's Debate on Supply, I am sure that can be arranged through the usual channels. With regard to Western Union and the Consultative Assembly and so on, I must adhere to the position taken by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday. If of course the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition does not ask for any Debate yet, any exchanges between us on that matter could be deferred perhaps until next week, but I must indicate that in the meantime the Government would adhere to the attitude which was adopted by the Prime Minister in the interchanges with the right hon. Gentleman which took place yesterday.

Mr. Churchill

But the right hon. Gentleman, I presume, realises that we cannot wait for the indefinite delaying processes the Prime Minister has employed? If these abuses are prolonged unduly, it will be necessary to raise the matter in the House, even though the elaborate procedure behind which the right hon. Gentleman is sheltering himself is endorsed.

Mr. Morrison

I was here yesterday and have read the proceedings, and the right hon. Gentleman's attitude is quite unjustified.

Mr. Churchill

No, it is not.

Mr. Morrison

There are certain international discussions proceeding, and it would be inappropriate for the Government to make up their minds with a view to informing the House before those international discussions have reached the appropriate point. We propose to follow the normal course in these matters, and in due course, no doubt, the Government's decision will be made known to the House.

Mr. Churchill

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that we do not feel ourselves in any way bound not to take action to bring about a Debate by the length of time the Government may take in arriving at their conclusions?

Mr. Morrison

There are means within the control of the Opposition—Supply Days and otherwise—by which they can force a Debate, but I do suggest to the House that it really is unwise that we should bring this to an issue until the international consultations have reached the point at which it would be proper for the Government to announce their decision.

Mr. Churchill

The Government are using them as a cloak.

Mr. Crawley

In view of the importance of Colonial economic development, can my right hon. Friend say whether that subject will be debated on a Supply Day on Colonial affairs?

Mr. Morrison

I think some such arrangement was come to last year in connection with the economic side of Colonial policy. It is, of course, a matter for the Opposition to decide what they wish to do with Supply time.

Mr. Warbey

Is the House to have an opportunity of debating the policy of the proposed Atlantic Pact before the Foreign Secretary goes to sign it, which, we understand, he is likely to do in two or three weeks' time?

Mr. Morrison

This, as I understand it, is a pact of a nature which, when the Government have come to their conclusions, will be subject to the approval of the House of Commons. Therefore, the rights of the House will not be lost. However, I think it would be somewhat novel and not to be welcomed in this case that we should be involved in Parliamentary Debate before the Foreign Secretary has gone on with the negotiations and tile completion of the discussions. However, I think my hon. Friend will be happy about this, that it will be subject in the end to the approval of the House of Commons.

Mr. Warbey

May I put it to my right hon. Friend that this pact involves a very large new departure in policy and commitments such as this country has never undertaken before? In such a case would it not be proper that the general policy underlying it should be discussed before there is any decision on the part of the Government, or any commitment by signature?

Mr. Morrison

My hon. Friend is not entitled, so to speak, to come to a decision as to what will be in the pact. The pact is not yet available and is not yet signed. When it is, it will be for the House of Commons to make up its mind whether it is a good step or whether it is not.

Mr. Thurtle

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the great bulk of the people of this country want this pact signed, and signed as quickly as possible?

Mr. Morrison

As I say, the pact does not yet exist, but I think with my hon. Friend that the broad development of public opinion would not be adverse to the general principles, which have been discussed in the public Press.

Several hon. Members rose——

Mr. Speaker

We cannot debate, on the question of Business for next week, the North Atlantic Pact.

Earl Winterton

Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear a matter of Parliamentary procedure of some importance? Do I understand him to say that treaties are subject to discussion by this House? Is it not the case, has it not always been the case with successive Governments, that the Government have responsibility for signing a treaty and do not put it to the House before it is signed?

Mr. Morrison

I do not think I sa—I certainly did not wish to say—anything inconsistent with what the noble Lord has said. My recollection is that ever since the first Labour Government, at any rate, it has been an established principle that the responsibility for signing a treaty or for not signing it is that of the Government of the day, unless there is such doubt about it that they wish to have Parliamentary discussion in advance. However, it is also the case that, thereafter, it is open for the House to refuse to ratify the agreement which is reached.

Mr. Edgar Granville

Reverting to the question of the election to the European Council, apart from the question of expediency or Government policy, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is a matter of definite principle here in which all parties in this House are very greatly interested? Will he reconsider whether——

Mr. Speaker

This has nothing to do with the Business for next week.

Mr. Granville

I was trying to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will reconsider his decision and have a Debate on this matter, so that the Government may know the opinions of all parties in the House.

Mr. Morrison

I do not think so. I think it is quite premature.

Mr. Scollan

As we have had a speech by the Leader of the Opposition suggesting more than one day to discuss the Supplementary Estimates, will my right hon. Friend be good enough to see that the days on which they are discussed are consecutive days, and are not spread over two or three weeks, and that after an opening statement from the Front Bench on this side and a statement from the Front Bench on the other side the back benchers are left the rest of the time?

Mr. Morrison

I see my hon. Friend's point, but I doubt whether in this particular instance it would be practicable to meet it. I have not made a concession of anything to the Opposition. It must always be remembered that subjects taken for discussion in Supply are under the control of the Opposition, subject to particular days; and it is important that that historic right of the Opposition should be maintained.

Mr. Emrys Roberts

Would the right hon. Gentleman give any indication when the Coast Protection Bill will be debated on Second Reading?

Mr. Morrison

I think it has been dealt with by another place, but I am not in a position to say when it will be considered here.

Mr. Sydney Silverman

In relation to my right hon. Friend's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) a little while ago, may I ask if his answer was intended to convey that any pact which the Foreign Secretary signs will not be operative until after the treaty has been ratified by a vote of the House of Commons?

Mr. Morrison

I do not think it is wise to go too far into detail about this. If the pact is signed, that will bind the Government. On the other hand, in certain cases where there are differences of opinion, the House has the undoubted right thereafter to cut in with a Motion or declaration that the Government should not have done it, in which case the Government would be in some difficulty.

Mr. Silverman

My right hon. Friend will agree, will he not, that there is all the difference in the world between a treaty which is expressly made subject to ratification by the House and a treaty which is not so made? What I am asking my right hon. Friend to say is, whether his answer before was intended to convey that the treaty would be signed only subject to such ratification—or whether he was not saying that. May I have an answer?

Mr. J. Langford-Holt

In view of the publicity which has been given to the question of Purchase Tax, and the effect on small traders can the right hon. Gentleman give us any indication of when the Chancellor of the Exchequer will present his Budget to the House?

Mr. Morrison

No, Sir, I am afraid I cannot.