HC Deb 02 February 1949 vol 460 cc1675-7
45. Mr. Leslie Hale

asked the Minister of Defence whether he is prepared to direct that in the trial by court martial of any person below the rank of commissioned officer at least one member of the court should be of equal rank with the accused.

The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander)

This is one of the questions arising out of the Report of the Committee on Army and Air Force Courts Martial; the Government have not yet reached a decision on the recommendations made in the Report.

Mr. Hale

In view of the fact that that Report has been in the hands of the Government now for some months, and that this elementary Service democratic reform has been introduced in the U.S.A., would he now speed up the consideration of this matter with a view to its introduction?

Mr. Alexander

The matters concerned are very complex, they are under active consideration and I hope that a statement will be made shortly as to the procedure to be adopted with regard to the Report.

Major Legge-Bourke

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that if only he will make it possible for the right sort of officer to go into the Army, such qualms as the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) has will be dispersed?

Mr. Alexander

There is no obstacle at present to the right sort of officer going into the Army.

Sir G. Jeffreys

Is the Minister aware that a court martial is not merely a court of justice but is also a court for the administration of discipline, and that for the proper administration of discipline the members of the court should be of superior rank to anybody who is being tried?

Mr. Pritt

Could the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how one can possibly have discipline without justice?

Mr. Alexander

I should say that in many respects the discipline administered in courts martial could be compared favourably with the justice elsewhere. Generally speaking, while there have been several matters to which attention has been drawn in the Lewis Report, which we have under consideration, the Report is not a great reflection upon the efficiency with which the courts martial have been conducted in the past. We are going into the matter in great detail and we shall make our recommendations to the House as early as possible.

Mr. Churchill

While we are all in favour of the effacement of class distinctions, is it not necessary in the Armed Forces to observe distinctions of rank?

Mr. Alexander

It is necessary to have such distinctions in rank as maintain proper discipline and also, in the other direction, an objective for each one for promotion—promotion from the ranks as well as the admission of officers direct from outside. We must give this careful consideration, but I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that the majority of the Lewis Committee were against the suggestion made by the hon. Member who put the Question.

Mr. Hale

Is it not also a fundamental thesis of all justice that a man should be tried by his peers?

Mr. Churchill

Is it not perfectly established in all democratic armies, including even the armies of totalitarian States, that the rank which is accorded by the State to individuals at various phases in their careers should determine the relationship of those individuals in discharging their duty to the State?

Mr. Alexander

All those matters have been under consideration by the Lewis Committee and will be carefully considered by the Government before they take their decisions.

Mr. Churchill

Surely the right hon. Gentleman, as Minister of Defence, need not be so afraid of getting a little unpopularity as to be unable to express the opinion which everyone sees he has?

Mr. Alexander

The right hon. Gentleman has no right at all to make such an imputation. He has been a Minister himself so long and he has always steered his answers to questions in the past to satisfy the needs of the moment, whatever his view of the matter, and so as not to prejudice what a particular decision of the Government of which he was a Member was going to be.

Mr. Churchill

The right hon. Gentleman has been asked a perfectly plain question, and I say across the Floor of the House that he is afraid, for fear of incurring unpopularity, to give a plain answer.

Mr. Alexander

The charge is untrue to start with and, in the second place, the right hon. Gentleman has never hesitated to trim his course in the past on any political question.