HC Deb 06 December 1949 vol 470 cc1720-5

Motion made, Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mrs. Braddock (Liverpool, Exchange)

I notice that the Clause states: A justice of the peace who is a member of a local authority … shall not act as a member of a court of quarter sessions or of a magistrates' court. … etc. In subsection (4) it states: Nothing in this section shall prevent a justice acting in any proceedings for an offence by reason only of their being brought by a police officer. I should like some explanation on the point, and would put forward a specific case. Would a magistrate who is a member of a local authority be precluded from dealing with a case in a juvenile court where children were accused of breaking into property belonging to a local authority? Imagine, for instance, a pavilion in a park, where some form of stealing had taken place, and where the local authorities do not prosecute but the child is arrested by the police and the action is brought by a police officer. In those circumstances will a magistrate be debarred from dealing with the case because of the wording of subsection (4) of this Clause?

If that is the position it will be particularly difficult in an area where there is a juvenile court on a rota basis, where members of a juvenile court take a rota of perhaps of one morning a week through two months, or one morning a week throughout a month, and are compelled to deal with all the cases that come before them on that particular morning. If members of a local authority are unable to deal with cases in those circumstances it means that the case of a child arrested the day before will have to be held over until a day when a member of the local authority is not a member of the juvenile court. It may sound a bit complicated, but if the matter is looked into it will be discovered that it is very difficult to have a bench of juvenile magistrates, none of whom are members of the local authority always sitting when there are children to be brought up in connection with misdemeanours relating to property belonging to a local authority.

I would also like to know the position where an education committee brings to a juvenile court a child who has been playing truant from school. It will be a very complicated matter for the juvenile bench to sort out the different justices who are members of the local authority and the cases which have to be dealt with on a particular day. If that is the situation it will require further consideration to see whether small matters of that sort can be dealt with by the ordinary magistrates on the juvenile bench who appear on the ordinary rota. This matter has been raised with me, because throughout the country there are magistrates on juvenile panels who are also members of local authorities. The rotas are fixed at the beginning of the period and continue right through the three years that a person sits as a member of a juvenile bench. It would mean the complete reorganisation of the rota and in many instances a child would be unable to be brought before the bench immediately.

Mr. Charles Williams (Torquay)

I wish to support what the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) has said. As she knows so well, I never open my mouth in this place unless I say something sensible. I should like the Home Secretary to look into this, because it does seem to be a loop-hole in the Bill and something might be done to put the matter right before it goes any further. I wish to thank the hon. Lady for what she has done as well as thanking her for her kindness to me not very long ago in my constituency.

Mr. Janner (Leicester, West)

I wish to ask the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock) to reconsider the points she has raised. It is a matter which does raise a very important issue which is an interesting one to advocates in various courts. As matters stand at present, if someone happens to be sitting on the bench who is interested by virtue of the fact that he happens to be a member of a local authority, it is difficult for an advocate to ask that person to retire, because it immediately creates prejudice on the part of the other people who are sitting on the bench.

At the same time, in order to give real satisfaction to his client an advocate feels that a demand should be made for that person to retire. I am certain that those who have had experience in these matters will agree that that often has to be taken into consideration before an application is actually made. Whilst I appreciate the point that difficulties must arise, particularly in juvenile courts, I think that the advantages of not having a magistrate who is concerned with the actual offence in respect of which a prosecution takes place outweigh the disadvantages which might accrue from having to exclude that type of magistrate.

4.0 p.m.

The Attorney-General

I do not think that we shall be able to consider any amendment of this Clause. This is a most important Clause which meets some of the difficulties which have hitherto arisen—such as those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for West Leicester (Mr. Janner)—where it has been awkward to suggest to a certain justice that he ought to retire because of a possible interest or bias in connection with a case. In the two cases mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock), the answer to the first is that there would not be disqualification—

Mrs. Braddock

Where the local authority is not involved at all in the prosecution, but where the police bring the prosecution?

The Attorney-General

That is exactly what I was dealing with. I was saying—that in that case the member of the local authority could sit and would not be disqualified by this Clause. The case the hon. Lady put was that of a child who had committed some offence—perhaps a larceny or a burglary—on premises belonging to the local authority. There would be no disqualification. In the instance she quoted where the prosecution was a police prosecution and not the result of any decision taken by the local authority or any of its committees, there would be no disqualification under this Bill.

I ought to add that, of course, this Clause does not take the place of the ordinary common law rules relating to bias. I do not know whether those rules would affect the case which the hon. Lady had in mind. It depends entirely on the circumstances. Obviously, if a magistrate's own house had been burgled, he would act with gross impropriety if he sat as magistrate to try the person who had burgled it. It is a question of degree. There might be cases where, although not disqualified under the Act, a member of a local authority ought to refrain from sitting on a bench.

The second case is a different one and to that the answer is that the member of the local authority would be disqualified under the Clause. That was the case where as a result of some decision of the Education Committee, proceedings were taken against a parent in respect of some offence over which that committee has jurisdiction. There we think that it would be wrong and contrary to the spirit of the Clause for a member of the local authority to sit. After all, the decision as a result of which the proceedings before the court are taken is a decision by a committee of the authority of which the justice is a member.

I do not know whether the decisions of these committees are confirmed by the council as a whole before the prosecution takes place, but if they are then they are decisions of the very body of which the justice is a member and in regard to which he has been entitled at least to express a view one way or the other.

Mr. Leslie Hale (Oldham)

And to hear statements.

The Attorney-General

And to hear statements as to the reason why the prosecution ought to be brought. If one permitted a justice who was a member of an education committee to sit, I cannot see why one should not extend a similar right to a member of a local authority in regard to any other matter in respect of which proceedings were taken—not on the suggestion of the education committee but on the suggestion of some other committee—in matters affecting the local authority. I feel, therefore, that the hon. Lady on reflection will appreciate that it is better to have a hard and fast rule applying to all committees and providing that justices who are also members of those committees and members of their local authorities should not sit in courts which are dealing with cases as a result of decisions taken by those committees and those authorities.

Mrs. Braddock

I merely asked for guidance in this matter. I did not make any comment. I am interested in the point that where a children's committee is part of a local authority and an action is taken by that committee, the member of the local authority could not sit; but where the children's committee is not part of a local authority but is an ad hoc committee, then the juvenile magistrate could sit. There is a difficult situation. This matter bristles with difficulties.

The Attorney-General

I understand the position to be that those committees are legally committees of the local authority. They are part of the local authority and the disqualification would apply.

Mr. Scholefield Allen (Crewe)

I should like information about the position of a co-opted member of an education committee. Is that person a member of a local authority?

Mrs. Braddock

No.

The Attorney-General

I should say that he certainly comes within this disqualification.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.