§ Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—(King's Recommendation signified.)
§ [Major MILNER in the Chair]
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide, amongst other things, for the establishment of an Iron and Steel Corporation of Great Britain and for defining their functions, and for the transfer to that Corporation of the securities of certain companies engaged in the working, getting and smelting of iron ore, the production of steel, and the shaping of steel by rolling, it is expedient to authorise—
§ 10.30 p.m.
§ Mr. Peter Roberts (Sheffield, Ecclesall)I hope we are to have some short explanation from the Financial Secretary, because many millions will be voted by this Resolution. The Committee should not let this procedure pass without a short word of disapproval, anyway from myself, because we are now passing within the purview of the Committee £350,000,000 or more which we 507 cannot have reported back to the House until it is expended. I wish, therefore, to raise two points. In the Money Resolution on the Coal Bill a period of five years was inserted during which the £150,000,000 had to be expended. May I ask why it is not considered a proper thing for a similar period of five years, or, as I suggest, a shorter period, for this blank cheque to be passed by this Committee?
The second point is: why have the words
otherwise than for paid compensation under this Actbeen omitted from this Money Resolution. More or less the same words were included in the Gas and Electricity Money Resolutions. But in this Resolution, the wordsfor the purpose of the exercise of the Corporation's borrowing powersare substituted for the words,otherwise than for paid compensation under this Act.I raise this point because from the paragraph as it stands it appears that the £350,000,000 includes not only the money for the rehabilitation of the industry but also the compensation. I appreciate that in the Explanatory Memorandum the contrary is stated, but what I wish to point out is that this paragraph seems to read as if the amounts outstanding in respect of stock so issued for compensation and money temporarily borrowed shall be limited to £350,000,000. In the other Money Resolutions the words, "otherwise than for paid compensation" were inserted, and it seems to me that without some explanation, the £350,000,000 covers both items.We are entitled to some explanation why we have departed in this case from the precedent of the others. I consider that passing £350,000,000 and, as the Financial Secretary said, other millions, possibly £200,000,000, in five minutes in this House, is not the way we should control public money. We are being asked to guarantee loans by the Corporation, in other words, to back the cheques of the Corporation. I was always taught by my father that it was a very unwise thing to back other people's cheques unless you knew exactly what it was about. Therefore, I suggest that we should have some explanation of the 508 attitude of the Government on this matter.
§ Mr. Gallacher (Fife, West)On a point of order, may I ask, Mr. Chairman, if you are going to call my Amendment?
§ The ChairmanI am afraid I cannot accept the hon. Member's Amendment.
§ Mr. Charles Williams (Torquay)After the brilliant speech which we heard a short time ago from the Lord President of the Council, it would be grossly unfair if the Financial Secretary to the Treasury did not have an opportunity to add to the brilliancy at the end of the evening. I want to ask one or two questions, as this is the only chance which we in the House of Commons get of inquiring into these matters. I strongly support the speech of the hon. Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts). It is grossly wrong of the Government to insist upon a Resolution of this kind being forced through the Committee at this time of night. There is no need to amplify that, because we know perfectly well why it is being forced through in so short a time. It was laid down only too clearly by the Lord President a week ago, that he does not want his own people to have to work a little overtime. That is the real reason why we are not allowed proper time for this Resolution.
There are two points on which I should like some information. They concern sub-paragraphs (iii) and (iv). This is the best opportunity we have of finding out if there is any plan in the minds of the Government as to the sort of boards they are to set up, and how big they are to be. We have been told that this is cut and dried. The Lord President said it was all worked out. We should know how many officials are being appointed, and what type of person is to be put on the boards, and the amount of remuneration to be paid. We all remember, as many outside this Committee remember, that this was not fully gone into on the occasion of previous nationalisations, and the result is that some appointments were nothing but unfortunate. That being the case, I hope that some member of the Government will be able to give this information.
§ Mr. Gallacher (Fife, West)I put down an Amendment to delete sub-paragraph (iii), but it has not been accepted. An hon. Member opposite has said that it is bad that the Committee should pass 509 an amount of £300,000,000-odd at this time of the night. This is as good a time as any to pass any amount of money in a good cause, but when it is in a bad cause, it is as bad a time as any. I must express my feeling of shock that the Government, after the experience it has had with the Coal Board, and the difficulties the Coal Board has experienced because of the amount of money it has to pay to the former coalowners, should start loading this Corporation with such an amount of money to pay to the former owners of the steel industry. This has been a "steal" industry long enough, with the emphasis on the "a." It is going to continue to be a "steal" industry if this amount of money is to be paid.
I suggest that the Government should take back this Resolution and in paragraph (a) make an allowance for the money which will be necessary to the Corporation for the rehabilitation of the industry. The Parliamentary Secretary last night drew attention to how the steel barons not only neglected the industry but kept masses of the workers unemployed between the wars. There was a terrific neglect of the industry. The Parliamentary Secretary said the steel workers understood the terrible condition of the industry under the steel barons in the inter-war years. Yet, these steel barons, who were so busy in the interwar years that they had no thought for the workers, are going to get the bulk of the millions proposed in this Money Resolution.
I suggest that the Government should not follow the course followed with the coalowners; they have over-burdened the industry, and I hope that the Government will bring in a special resolution dealing with compensation. I am not going to send the "steal" barons to the Assistance Board. I am not so hardhearted as that. What I would suggest is that the Government bring in a resolution to deal with the industry, and then bring in another resolution to give a living allowance to these men; the men from whom they have taken the shares. The Government should not give them a fabulous sum, but a sum for the period of their natural life, so that they may live—
§ The ChairmanI am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman is not in Order. His remarks might be in Order at some stage of the Bill, but not at this stage.
§ Mr. GallacherI bow always to your Ruling, Major Milner. I am always happy to get your guidance, but I thought that I was expressing the feelings of many hon. Members on this side of the Committee. I say that because those Members never visualised nationalisation as a method of making free gifts to the barons. Nobody who pioneered the building of the movement ever thought that the Coal Bill, the Electricity Bill, the Gas Bill, and now the Steel Bill, would provide for those people; would make provisions so that the money can be handed down to sons and grandsons, burdening the nation with a lot of responsibilities which ought to have been abolished long ago.
So, I say again to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury—and there is no man in whom hon. Members put greater trust—that he should recommend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other members of the Government, that this Resolution should be taken back and that there should be put in its place a resolution which, no matter how disturbing it may be to the living parasites, will at least be something which will give peace and comfort to the spirit of the pioneers of the great Labour movement. I do ask the Government to consider this matter very seriously; it is not the steel barons for whom we are legislating, but the workers who supported the Labour movement.
§ 10.45 p.m.
§ Mr. David Renton (Huntingdon)I presume that the disruptive suggestions of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) have received little sympathy on either side of the Committee, and I propose, therefore, at once to proceed to the question of how something which I consider a costly federation to the workers of this country can be as little burdensome as possible. Every scheme of nationalisation has a very heavy financial handicap which industries run by private enterprise do not have. This is the financial handicap of what we may call the "bureaucratic pyramid." That is, a tight mass of officials from the head of the Corporation, down through the area offices, and so to the people who, at last, are supposed to be doing the job, but subject to too much direction from above.
511 In other nationalised industries, both in this country and abroad, it has been exceedingly difficult for the concerns to be run at a profit, because of the financial handicap of that bureaucratic pyramid. We do not know exactly what is going to happen on this occasion if by some misfortune this scheme is ever brought about, because we have not been told about it, and we cannot gain the slightest impression from the Financial Memorandum. All we know is that we are being asked to pass an unlimited sum for some uncertain time in the future for
the administrative expenses incurred under the said Act by any Minister of the Crown or Government department.It seems that upon that broadly worded sentence a bureaucratic pyramid with immense foundations can be built up. I should like to supplement the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) that we should have some kind of indication of the bureaucracy which is to be imposed upon this industry and which may very well make it into a financial loss.
§ Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)I hope the Government will think twice about this Financial Resolution, because, as the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has already pointed out, there is great disquiet, especially in the mining areas, about the huge sums that have been paid for compensation. It is a profound mistake to think that this is only the point of view of the Communist Party. It is a point of view very widely shared in the trade union world, and as far as the mines are concerned, there is every evidence to show that far from being mean to the shareholders, the terms of compensation were over-generous. We have heard a great deal about Stock Exchange quotations in the course of the Debate on this Bill, but I could point to the case of a firm in my constituency whose £1 share is now quoted at 75s. I suggest that the members of the Opposition, who are so keen about decreasing public expenditure and so afraid of inflation, should show a little consideration when this huge burden is going to be placed upon the industry of the country. I suggest that the Government should introduce some kind of Clause which will prohibit giving compensation to anyone in excess of £5,000 a year. I urge the 512 Government to remember that this policy of over-compensation to the people who have mismanaged our industry in the past is one that deserves further consideration.
§ Sir John Mellor (Sutton Coldfield)I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question. There is a reference in the terms of the Resolution to
any guarantee by the Treasury of the principal of and interest on stock.Am I right in assuming that, as it is proposed to guarantee the principal of the stock, the stock will be dated stock? Will it be stock with a fixed date of redemption or a fixed period during which it must be redeemed? I ask that for this reason—if it was proposed to issue a stock with no fixed date for redemption, a stock like Dalton stock of unhappy memory, there would be no occasion whatsoever to guarantee the principal. It would be quite sufficient to guarantee payment of the interest. Therefore, I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether this stock which is to be issued will be dated stock.
§ Mr. George Ward (Worcester)In considering this extremely large sum it is essential that we should know as far as possible how it is to be spent. Our confidence has not increased in any way by consideration of one example which does exist of nationalisation in the steel industry, or the State ownership of part of that industry. If I may, I should like to refer to this particular case. It may be remembered that during the war the Ministry of Supply bought a company called the South Wales Forgemasters, Limited. They bought £10,000 worth of share capital at 10s. a share. The Ministry also loaned the company £271,000 for the purpose of building a new drop-forging plant, and advanced considerable sums to the company for working capital. As it happened, this new plant was not ready for full operation until 1945, when the war ended. But the Ministry of Supply, instead of handing the plant back to private enterprise, decided to operate it in competition with private enterprise.
The result of this operation was that the company made a loss up to June, 1947, amounting to £186,000, of which £124,000 was lost in the years 1945–46 and 1946–47. The works were run by an extremely efficient manager but he 513 received his instructions direct from the Ministry of Supply. On numerous occasions I understand the directors advised the Ministry of the extremely heavy losses which were being incurred, and these losses were always met by further loans from the Ministry.
§ The ChairmanI am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but his argument does not seem to arise on the Financial Resolution. It may be an appropriate argument on Second Reading or on the Committee stage, but it does not seem to be relevant on the Financial Resolution.
§ Mr. WardAll I was trying to point out was the irresponsible way in which the State was prepared to spend money voted by Parliament. There was never any difficulty in getting the money to meet these heavy losses, in spite of the directors' warnings, and with great respect that is a point we should consider. The end of the story is that the company was sold to a firm of Birmingham drop forgers for £144,890 5s. 2d. It will be seen, therefore, that the Ministry of Supply lost almost as much between July, 1945, and June, 1947, as they eventually received for the whole plant.
§ The ChairmanWhat the hon. Gentleman is saying, and saying at some length if I may say so, and with too much detail, is something which I do not think is relevant on this occasion. It may be relevant on other occasions.
§ Mr. WardI am grateful to you, Major Milner, for your Ruling and for your patience. I have finished now. All I should like to say is that if this is the way in which money which we have voted here is going to be misused, we are justified in voting against it.
§ Mr. Scollan (Renfrew Western)It seems to be accepted, especially by the Opposition, that everybody on this side of the House is in favour of the Bill, holus-bolus. The great majority are in favour of the Bill, but on the Financial Resolution there is some very grave doubt about the wisdom of paying the sum it is proposed to pay. One of the things that rather interested me during the Debate on the Second Reading was that not one hon. Member ever drew attention to the fact that while the date was fixed on which shares being paid for at Stock Exchange prices—
§ The ChairmanThe question of the methods or assessment of compensation clearly does not arise here at all.
§ Mr. ScollanI am glad I have your guidance in the matter, Major Milner, but I was not dealing with the assessment at all. What I was dealing with was the point why that particular sum should be fixed, not the assessment.
§ The ChairmanThe hon. Member is really in error: there is no sum fixed in this Resolution in respect of compensation. The sum is quite at large.
§ Mr. ScollanDo I understand that this £350,000,000 goes towards paying the shareholders?
§ The ChairmanNo, that is not the case: this Resolution gives authority for borrowing that sum for other purposes altogether.
§ The Minister of Supply (Mr. G. R. Strauss)Two or three points have been raised in discussion. Most of them are of a general character and I do not think that the Committee will want me to deal with them in any detail. They include the question whether any compensation at all, or at any rate, on the basis proposed in the Bill, should be paid. I am sure the Committee do not want me to deal with that this evening. Another general question which was raised was whether I could give any details as to how the money would be spent, who would be on the Corporation and what its task would be. Those questions were dealt with broadly and at great length during the Second Reading Debate, and I feel the Committee would not want me to deal with them. There were, however. three specific points—
§ Mr. C. WilliamsNormally I should not dream of asking the right hon. Gentleman, but I feel it is most discourteous of him not to give me any reply at all—or does he just not know?
§ Mr. StraussIt seems to me that if I attempted to answer the hon. Member, which I should be perfectly happy to do, I should have to go into detail and the Chairman would rule me out of Order. [HON. MEMBERS: "Try."] I have no desire to be out of Order, or to be called to Order by the Chair. Obviously the questions the hon. Member raised were 515 not appropriate to the Financial Resolution.
§ The ChairmanIt may help if I say that it does seem to me that the salaries of the members of the board of the Corporation are not dealt with by the Financial Resolution at all. The Financial Resolution refers to the boards of referees, the arbitration tribunal and so forth and not to the board of the Corporation.
§ Mr. WilliamsI think, on that point of Order, I may have used the wrong word, but I did refer to sub-paragraphs (iii) and (iv):
fees and allowances to any referee or board of referees";andremuneration and allowances to members and officers of the arbitration tribunal.Those were two points I particularly wished to have some information on and they are included in the Financial Resolution.
§ The ChairmanThe right hon. Gentleman will be in Order in replying on those points.
§ Mr. ScollanWith regard to your Ruling, Major Milner, that I was out of Order, I read in this Money Resolution:
The payment out of the Consolidated Fund of such sums as may be required to fulfil any guarantee by the Treasury of the principal of and interest on stock issued by the said Corporation.If that is in the Money Resolution, I want to know why I am out of Order in discussing the particular sum that is going to be allocated for that purpose.
§ The ChairmanFor the simple reason that no sum is mentioned in the Resolution. The matter of the Resolution refers to guarantees by the Treasury to the Corporation.
§ Mr. ScollanFurther to that point of Order, I was not dealing with an amount, nor did I specify any amount. I was dealing with particular shareholders' prices fixed on a particular date.
§ The ChairmanIf that was what the hon. Member was doing, again, he would not be in Order. The occasion for the hon. Gentleman is on the Committee stage of the Bill.
§ Mr. ScollanI must accept your Ruling, but I must submit that it is very very peculiar, and I do not see how it is out of Order.
§ Mr. Piratin (Mile End)Is it not the case that the actual amount of £350 million is stated, and is that not a precise figure to which the hon. Member could refer?
§ The ChairmanThat figure refers to an entirely different matter—the question of the Corporation's borrowing powers.
§ 11.0 p.m.
§ Mr. G. R. StraussI think that the point which the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) has now put is rather different from the one he first raised. I understand he wants to know what sort of remuneration the men who sit on boards of referees and arbitration tribunals will receive. There is a standard rate laid down by the Treasury, but I do not know the figure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] This is a matter of detail which I did not think the Committee would want to know. It is a standard rate laid down by the Treasury and it has been in operation for many years. It is a matter of a few guineas a day. If it interests the hon. Member to know what that rate is, I could find it out and let him know. It is not a matter of great principle.
§ Mr. C. WilliamsAs the Minister cannot give it now, will he give it on the Report stage? That would be the fair thing to do if he has not the knowledge now.
§ Mr. StraussIf the hon. Member puts a question down, I will answer it.
§ Mr. GallacherWould it not be better to use the money available to give the old-age pensioners £2 a week?
§ Mr. StraussI want to deal with the three points of substance which have been put to me. The hon. Member for Ecclesall (Mr. P. Roberts) was rather puzzled by the wording of the Resolution and was not quite clear whether the £350 million included compensation stock or not. It does not. The compensation is paid out of a separate sum; we do not know exactly what it will be, but it will be in the neighbourhood of £300 million. The £350 million is in respect of the borrowings which the Corporation is likely 517 to undertake during the first five to seven years of its existence.
§ Mr. P. RobertsI appreciate that, but surely the guarantee was to be given for
the principal of and interest on moneys temporarily borrowed by the said Corporation or any publicly-owned company … and in respect of any moneys temporarily borrowed as aforesaid do not at any time exceed the sum of £350 million…It is the word "and" in line 12 which worries me.
§ Mr. StraussI am assured that it is legally correct. The wording is different from other Bills, but it ties up with Clause 30 (4) of the Bill.
The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) asked me what was meant by the administrative expenses which were being voted, and he was fearful lest the Treasury were giving out vast sums to pay a huge bureaucracy, and that once we parted with this Resolution we would have no further control. I do not think he need worry on that score. The amount likely to be spent under this head will be very small, and will come annually before Parliament in my Department's Vote, so he will be able to check the amount, and if he considers it is too high he will be able to complain or vote against it.
§ Mr. RentonWe are being asked to vote now these sums. Can the right hon.
§ Gentleman give us some idea of the liability we are incurring?
§ Mr. StraussThis is common form in every Bill of this sort. It is essential to make arrangements for Departmental expenses which may be necesary in setting up the Corporation. They are likely to be small, and in fact may be nothing at all, but we must make provision for them. They will come before the House every year, and the hon. Member will be able to keep an annual check on the Department and see that we are not being extravagant. The other point of substance was that by the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor). He asked whether this stock would he dated and redeemable, and the answer is "Yes." Those I think were the major points put to me, apart from the general problem whether we were paying too much compensation. I may add that I now have the figures for which the hon. Member asked. The fee paid to referees is about five guineas a day when they are sitting, and for the members of a tribunal about three guineas a day. These amounts have been in operation a long time, and they will apply to the boards of referees and the tribunals proposed in this Bill.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 320; Noes, 190.
521| Division No. 6.] | AYES | [11.8 p.m.] |
| Acland, Sir Richard | Bramall, E. A. | Davies, Ernest (Enfield) |
| Adams, Richard (Balham) | Brook, D. (Halifax) | Davies, Harold (Leek) |
| Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) | Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) | Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S. W.) |
| Albu, A. H. | Brown, George (Belper) | Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. | Brown, T. J. (Ince) | Davies, S. O (Merthyr) |
| Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) | Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. | Deer, G. |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Burden, T. W. | Delargy, H. J |
| Alpass, J. H. | Burke, W. A. | Diamond, J. |
| Anderson, A. (Motherwell) | Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.) | Dobbie, W. |
| Attewell, H. C. | Carmichael, James | Dodds, N. N. |
| Austin, H. Lewis | Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Donovan, T |
| Awbery, S. S. | Chamberlain, R. A | Driberg, T. E. N |
| Ayles, W. H | Champion, A. J. | Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich) |
| Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B | Chetwynd, G. R | Dumpleton, C. W |
| Bacon, Miss A | Cobb, F. A. | Dye, S. |
| Baird, J. | Cocks, F. S. | Ede, Rt. Hon. J C |
| Balfour, A | Coldrick, W. | Edelman, M. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J | Collick, P. | Edwards, John (Blackburn) |
| Barstow, P. G | Collindridge, F | Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) |
| Barton, C. | Collins, V. J. | Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) |
| Bechervaise, A. E. | Colman, Miss G. M | Evans, Albert (Islington, W.) |
| Ballenger, Rt. Hon. F. J | Comyns, Dr. L. | Evans, E. (Lowestoft) |
| Benson, G | Cook, T. F. | Evans, John (Ogmore) |
| Berry, H. | Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.) | Evans, S. N (Wednesbury) |
| Binns, J. | Corlett, Dr. J | Ewart, R. |
| Blackburn, A. R | Cove, W. G. | Fairhurst, F |
| Blyton, W. R. | Crossman, R. H. S | Farthing, W. J |
| Boardman, H. | Cullen, Mrs. A. | Fernyhough, E. |
| Bottomley, A. G. | Daggar, G. | Field, Capt W. J |
| Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W. | Daines, P. | Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl Exch'ge) | Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | Foot, M. M. |
| Braddock, T. (Mitcham) | Davies, Edward (Burslem) | Forman, J. C. |
| Fraser, T. (Hamilton) | McAllister, G. | Scott-Elliott, W |
| Freeman, J. (Watford) | McEntee, V. La T. | Segal, Dr. S. |
| Freeman, Peter (Newport) | McGhee, H. G. | Shackleton, E. A. A |
| Ganley, Mrs. C. S | Mack, J. D. | Sharp, Granville |
| Gibbins, J. | McKay, J. (Wallsend) | Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes) |
| Gibson, C. W | Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W.) | Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens) |
| Gilzean, A | McLeavy, F. | Shurmer, P. |
| Glanville, J. E. (Consett) | MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) | Silverman, J. (Erdington) |
| Goodrich, H. E. | MacPherson, M. (Stirling) | Simmons, C. J |
| Gordon-Walker, P. C | MacPherson, T. (Romford) | Skeffington, A. M. |
| Greenwood, A W J (Heywood) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Skeffington-Lodge, T. C |
| Grey, C. F. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield) | Skinnard, F. W. |
| Grierson, E | Mann, Mrs. J. | Smith, C. (Colchester) |
| Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) | Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) | Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Griffiths, Rt Hon. J. (Llanelly) | Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) | Smith, S. H. (Hull, S. W.) |
| Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side) | Marquand, H. A | Snow, J. W. |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden | Mayhew, C. P. | Solley, L. J. |
| Gunter, R. J. | Medland, H. M | Sparks, J. A |
| Guy, W. H. | Mellish, R. J. | Steele, T |
| Haire, John E. (Wycombe) | Middleton, Mrs. L. | Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) |
| Hale, Leslie | Mikardo, Ian | Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil | Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R | Strauss, Rt. Hon G. R. (Lambeth) |
| Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R | Mitchison, G. R | Stubbs, A. E. |
| Hannan, W. (Maryhill) | Monslow, W. | Swingler, S. |
| Hardy, E. A | Moody, A. S. | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Harrison, J. | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Symonds, A. L. |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Morley, R. | Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield) |
| Haworth, J. | Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kingswinford) | Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) | Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet) |
| Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) | Mort, D. L. | Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare) |
| Herbison, Miss M. | Moyle, A. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Hewitson, Capt M | Murray, J. D. | Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin) |
| Hobson, C. R. | Nally, W. | Thomas, John R. (Dover) |
| Holman, P. | Neal, H. (Claycross) | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth) | Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Horabin, T. L. | Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) | Tiffany, S. |
| Hoy, J. | Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford) | Timmons, J. |
| Hubbard, T. | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby) | Titterington, M. F. |
| Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W) | O'Brien, T. | Tolley, L. |
| Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr) | Oldfield, W. H | Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Oliver, G. H. | Ungoed-Thomas, L |
| Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) | Orbach, M. | Usborne, Henry |
| Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) | Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth) | Vernon, Maj. W. F. |
| Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.) |
| Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Palmer, A. M. F | Warbey, W. N. |
| Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool) | Pargiter, G. A. | Watkins, T. E. |
| Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.) | Parker, J. | Watson, W. M. |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Parkin, B. T. | Webb, M. (Bradford, C.) |
| Janner, B. | Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) | Weitzman, D. |
| Jeger, G (Winchester) | Paton, J. (Norwich) | Wells, W. T. (Walsall) |
| Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S. E.) | Pearson, A | West, D. G. |
| Jenkins, R. H | Pearl, T. F | Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.) |
| John, W | Perrins, W. | White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Johnston, Douglas | Platts-Mills, J. F. F. | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool) | Porter, E. (Warrington) | Wilkes, L. |
| Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) | Porter, G. (Leeds) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Jones. J. H. (Bolton) | Pritt, D. N. | Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) |
| Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) | Proctor, W. T. | Willey, O. G. (Cleveland) |
| Keenan, W. | Pursey, Comdr. H | Williams, D. J. (Neath) |
| Kenyon, C. | Randall, H. E. | Williams, J. L (Kelvingrove) |
| Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Ranger, J. | Williams, R. W. (Wigan) |
| Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E | Rankin, J. | Williams, W. R. (Heston) |
| Kinley, J | Rees-Williams, D. R | Willis, E. |
| Kirkwood, Rt. Hon D | Reeves, J. | Wills, Mrs. E. A |
| Lang, G. | Reid, T. (Swindon) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. H. |
| Lavers, S | Rhodes, H | Wise, Major F. J. |
| Lee, F. (Hulme) | Richards, R. | Woodburn, Rt. Hon A |
| Lee, Miss J. (Cannock) | Ridealgh, Mrs. M | Woods, G. S |
| Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) | Robens, A. | Wyatt, W. |
| Lewis, J. (Bolton) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) | Yates, V. F. |
| Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) | Younger, Hon. Kenneth |
| Lindgren, G. S. | Rogers, G. H. R. | Zilliacus, K |
| Logan, D. G | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) | |
| Longden, F. | Royle, C | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Lyne, A. W | Sargood, R | Mr. Popplewell and |
| McAdam, W. | Scollan, T. | Mr. George Wallace. |
| NOES | ||
| Agnew, Cmdr. P. G | Beamish, Maj. T. V. H | Bowen, R |
| Aitken, Hon. Max | Beechman, N. A. | Bower, N. |
| Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Scot. Univ.) | Birch, Nigel | Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. |
| Astor, Hon. M | Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Boothby, R. | Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G |
| Barlow, Sir J. | Bossom, A. C | Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Hollis, M. C. | Odey, G. W. |
| Butcher, H. W. | Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich) | Orr-Ewing, I. L. |
| Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n) | Hope, Lord J. | Peake, Rt. Hon. O. |
| Byers, Frank | Howard, Hon. A. | Peto, Brig. C. H. M. |
| Carson, E. | Hudson, Rt. Hon R. S (Southport) | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. |
| Challen, C. | Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J. | Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry) |
| Channon, H. | Hurd, A. | Prescott, Stanley |
| Clarke, Col. R. S. | Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) | Price-White, Lt.-Col. D |
| Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G | Hutchison, Col, J. R. (Glasgow, C) | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O |
| Cole, T. L. | Jarvis, Sir J. | Raikes, H. V. |
| Conant, Maj. R. J. E | Jeffreys, General Sir G. | Ramsay, Maj. S. |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Jennings, R. | Rayner, Brig. R. |
| Corbett, Lt.-Col. U. | Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W | Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury) |
| Crookshank. Capt. Rt Hon. H. F. C | Keeling, E. H. | Renton, D. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E | Kerr, Sir J. Graham | Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth) |
| Crowder, Capt. John E | Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H. | Roberts, H. (Handsworth) |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Lambert, Hon. G. | Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall) |
| Darling, Sir W. Y. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) |
| Davidson, Viscountess | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. | Robertson, Sir D (Streatham) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H | Ropner, Col. L |
| De la Bère, R | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry) |
| Digby, S. W. | Lindsay, M. (Solihull) | Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A |
| Dodds-Parker, A. D | Lipson. D. L. | Sanderson, Sir F. |
| Donner, P. W. | Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) | Savory, Prof. D. L |
| Dower, Col. A. V. G. (Penrith) | Low, A. R. W. | Scott, Lord W. |
| Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness) | Lucas, Major Sir J | Shephard, S. (Newark) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. | Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow) |
| Drewe, C. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. | Smith, E. P. (Ashford) |
| Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond) | MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. | Smithers, Sir W. |
| Duncan. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (City of Lond) | McCallum, Maj. D. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. O |
| Duthie, W. S | Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. |
| Eccles, D. M. | McFarlane, C. S. | Strauss, Henry (English Universities) |
| Eden, Rt. Hon A. | Mackeson, Brig. H. R | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Walter | McKie, J. H. (Galloway) | Taylor, C. S (Eastbourne) |
| Erroll, F. J. | Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster) | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.) |
| Fletcher, W. (Bury) | Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) | Teeling, William |
| Foster, J. G. (Northwich) | Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) | Thomas, Ivor (Keighley) |
| Fox, Sir G. | Maitland, Comdr. J. W | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone) | Manningham-Buller, R. E | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth) |
| Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale) | Marlowe, A. A. H. | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. |
| Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M. | Marples, A. E. | Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F. |
| Gage, C. | Marsden, Capt. A. | Touche, G. C. |
| Galbraith, Cmdr T. D | Marshall, D. (Bodmin) | Turton, R. H. |
| Gammans, L. D. | Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) | Vane, W. M. F |
| Gates, Maj. E. E. | Maude, J. C. | Wadsworth, G. |
| Glyn, Sir R. | Mellor, Sir J. | Wakefield, Sir W. W |
| Granville, E. (Eye) | Molson, A. H. E. | Walker-Smith, D. |
| Gridley, Sir A. | Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T. | Ward, Hon. G. R |
| Grimston, R. V. | Morris-Jones, Sir H. | Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie |
| Gruffydd, Prof W. J | Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury) | Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.) |
| Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) | Morrison, Rt. Hn. W. S. (Cirencester) | White, Sir D (Fareham) |
| Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) | Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. | White, J. B. (Canterbury) |
| Harris, F. W. (Croydon, N.) | Mullan, Lt. C. H. | Williams, C. (Torquay) |
| Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V | Neven-Spence, Sir B | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C | Nicholson, G. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Herbert, Sir A. P. | Nield, B. (Chester) | York, C. |
| Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Noble, Comdr. A. H. P | |
| Hogg, Hon. Q | Nutting, Anthony | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Sir Arthur Young and Mr. Studholme. |
§ Resolution to be reported tomorrow.