HC Deb 22 March 1948 vol 448 cc2579-83
Mr. Churchill

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any alteration to announce in the Business for this week?

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

Yes, Sir. Tomorrow, Tuesday, we propose to take the Palestine Bill as first Order, and we hope that it will be agreeable to the House to complete the Committee and remaining stages. Afterwards we shall proceed with the Representation of the People Bill, as already announced. At the end of the Business we shall ask the House to consider the Motion relating to Procedure of the House and Exchequer equalisation grants.

Mr. Churchill

Obviously the Palestine Bill will take a considerable time. Is it intended to sit late tomorrow night? How is that to be arranged? The Representation of the People Bill will probably not come on until late tomorrow night. How does the right hon. Gentleman envisage the proceedings?

Mr. Morrison

I am envisaging the proceedings as best I can. I had hoped that the Palestine Bill would be completed on Friday, but that did not eventuate. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is undesirable that this Bill should be delayed, because big events are related to it. Therefore, I think we must take this Bill tomorrow, and it will probably be necessary to suspend the Rule. On the other hand, I should hope that after the considerable discussion that took place on Clause 1 on Friday, we may make rather more speedy progress tomorrow, and thereby get on to the Representation of the People Bill at not too late an hour, but I do envisage that it will be necessary to suspend the Rule.

Mr. Churchill

Would it not be undesirable to begin the Representation of the People Bill at a late hour in the evening? Is there not this question of the Motion relating to the Procedure of the House and Exchequer equalisation grants? I understand the right hon. Gentleman has a statement to make on it.

Mr. Morrison

Yes, Sir. I did mention that. At the end of the Business we shall ask the House to consider the Motion relating to Procedure of the House and Exchequer equalisation grants. I hope that that will not be unduly contentious, but it is urgent because it is related to the final passage of the Local Government Bill. As to the Representation of the People Bill and the hour at which we commence the proceedings upon that Bill, we shall have to see how we go on tomorrow. We will, of course, consider the matter as the day proceeds.

Mr. Churchill

Can we have any idea of what is involved in the Motion relating to Procedure of the House in regard to the Exchequer equalisation grants?

Mr. Morrison

It will, of course, be explained tomorrow. I do not want to be bound in detail to this, but my recollection is that, broadly speaking, it may be that indirectly—[Laughter.] I should like to treat the right hon. Gentleman with courtesy and seek to explain. If his supporters laugh and giggle I will give it up. Let me try to explain it as far as I can. Consequent on the passage of the Local Government Bill, it may be that indirectly local government expenditure, as it develops, will affect Treasury expenditure, and that in turn may affect the question of private Bills and public Bills relating to local government. It is intended that this revision of the Standing Orders should cover that new eventuality consequent on the passage of the Local Government Bill.

Mr. Churchill

Is that procedure which the Government propose, in accordance with the Rules of the House?

Mr. Morrison

No, Sir. I cannot exactly say that it is in accordance with the Rules of the House. It is really to bring the situation which will arise into conformity with the principles behind the Rules of the House. As it is a revision of Standing Orders, it clearly must mean a revision in the existing procedure, but its purpose is to uphold the principles behind the Standing Orders of the House.

Mr. Churchill

Would not it be wrong to have a discussion upon this matter which is not in accordance with the Rules of the House, and which involves alteration of the Standing Orders, at a very late hour tomorrow after the Debate on Palestine? Is a fragment of the Representation of the People Bill discussion to be interpolated between the Palestine Bill and the Motion relating to Procedure of the House?

Mr. Morrison

It may be so. I do not think it would be wrong to take this revision of the Standing Orders at the end of the Business. The difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman and I are in is that we really cannot tell how long the consideration of the Palestine Bill will last. I hope it will not be unduly protracted, in which case many of our apprehensions will pass away. If it is unduly protracted, I agree, we must consider the situation with care as we go along.

Mr. Pickthorn

With reference to the right hon. Gentleman's hopes about the Palestine Bill, is he not aware that one of the great events of which he has spoken has occurred since the discussion on the Motion that Clause I stand part, and thereby has put much or most of that discussion really out of date? Secondly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it was the Government who chose the date on which the Bill should be begun, and there was no attempt in any quarter of the House, least of all from the Opposition, to protract discussion?

Mr. Morrison

I am bound to say that I think the proceedings on Friday lasted longer than most people imagined they would, and certainly longer than the Government hoped, not unreasonably, that they would. With regard to events, I am aware of what the hon. Gentleman is referring to—the changes in policy of another country which have happened since then. I really do not think that materially affects the position. The central issue here is whether the British people, the British Government and Parliament wish us to prolong our stay in Palestine or whether we have come to a point where we think we must get out. That is the issue, and on that issue I do not think there is any doubt about what British public opinion is. I hope hon. Members on both sides of the House will take into account what British public opinion is.

Mr. Churchill

As the House knows, I am in favour of the general principle. I only regret that it was not undertaken at an earlier stage. But, surely, it is a very grave and painful matter, a distressing and agonising issue, and one which certainly the House should have an opportunity to discuss fully and freely. Would it not be more reasonable to take this alteration in the Standing Orders at the beginning, and then let the Palestine Measure run out the rest of the day?

Mr. Sydney Silverman

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that now for the second time he has misstated in the House what is the issue in this Bill? The issue is not at all whether we should get out. Everybody agrees that we should get out. Everybody who has spoken in the Debate and who voted agreed that we should end the Mandate and get out forthwith. The issue is whether we do that and leave nothing behind, or whether we do that and leave something behind.

Mr. Speaker

It seems to me that we are going to rediscuss what happened in Committee on Friday. This House has no knowledge of what happened in Committee on Friday; it has not yet been reported.

Mr. Churchill

Might I have an answer to my question whether the right hon. Gentleman will consider taking the Standing Order first and giving the rest of the day to Palestine?

Mr. Morrison

If the House prefers it that way round, and upon the understanding that there is nothing unduly troublesome about the Standing Order, we shall take the Standing Order first. Then we can go on to Palestine and see whether it is possible to resume consideration of the Representation of the People Bill when the Palestine Bill has been dealt with.

Mr. Churchill

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for meeting what I think is a very widely shared wish of the House.

Mr. Mikardo

While everybody will share the anxiety that the Palestine Bill should be dealt with as quickly as is consistent with proper discussion of the very difficult issues involved, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, when he says that we had a long discussion on the important things on Friday last, that the most important Debate on Friday was ended by the Government moving and carrying the Closure?

Mr. Speaker

We have no knowledge of that because it was in Committee.